Elagabalus denarius

[krazy]

Hi everyone! I'm almost sure this coin is a denarius, rather than a fake issue (fouree or limes). At this point the cleaning is advanced; coin was totally black (as color), covered with dirt and some sort of "crystallized particles" (shinny spots). The weight (2.97 g) and its general aspect lead me to think that this could be a denarius. So, I put the coin to soak for a while in lemon juice, and, in relatively short time, the silver appeard. Now, I can fully attribute it to Elagabalus, with the reverse type INVICTVS SACERDOS AVG. What I found interesting is that the weight is now 2.63 g. As I said, I'm almost sure this is a denarius, so, I guess the cleaning should continue with lemon juice. Before I continue, I would be glad to hear your advices, interpretations or points of view.

Best Regards

[krazy]

Well, I didn't wait for an answer too much so, I continued the cleaning with lemon juice. The result, as you can see below, confirms that this is in fact a denarius with an interesting effect on the reverse (incuse?). What do you think about this?

Regards, Dany

P.S.: The weight is now 2.52 g and, of course, the cleaning is not over.

[Rich Beale]

What you are referring to on the obverse is probably a flan flaw caused by it being an overstrike on an earlier denarius.

[casata137ec]

Looks like you are doing fine. The only advice I can give is to let it rest every few days. I had a den that got mushy and soft after I soaked it too long/worked it too much, I think it is due to the base metals being leached and leaving the silver much less...cohesive...if that makes any sense.

Chris

[krazy]

What you are referring to on the obverse is probably a flan flaw caused by it being an overstrike on an earlier denarius.

I heard about this type of coins (overstrikes on earlier denarii), but never seen one. So, it's somehow similar to incuse effect as appearance?

Looks like you are doing fine. The only advice I can give is to let it rest every few days. I had a den that got mushy and soft after I soaked it too long/worked it too much, I think it is due to the base metals being leached and leaving the silver much less...cohesive...if that makes any sense.

Thanks for the advice Chris, it really makes sense. Unfortunately, I had the same problem with another denarius. This time, I would not let the coin soak more than one hour, and use for cleaning only fingers and toothpicks.

Dany

[Rich Beale]

Sorry, I meant the reverse, not obverse. A freudian slip - where you say one thing but mean your mother.

Incuse is different - click on this word to get the Forvm definition page. It is a deliberate method to create a hollowed out design or space, as opposed to this instance, where the depression is unintentional.

[curtislclay]

The incuse portrait on rev. is probably due to clashed dies, i.e. striking the dies together without a planchet between them, rather than overstriking of a previous coin.

[krazy]

As an update to this thread, I made some better pictures to show you the final results of cleaning. It is now more than obvious that, the effect on the reverse was caused due to clashed dies, as Curtis explained. Still, one thing concerns me now: the rough surface of denarius (you can click to zoom and see closer). Maybe the cause for this is similar with the one suggested here: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=23312.0 ? I remained with impression that this roughness appeard suddenly, toward the end of the cleaning process.

Dany

P.S.: Not sure if this means something, but, during the cleaning process I measured the weight to see how much of it will be 'lost': from 2.97 g at start, the coin has now 2.41 g.

[bruce61813]

The surface roughness was caused by surface removal of copper from the alloy. Think of it as chemical sandblasting. It's 'sudden' appearance is due to the fact that you are removing micron or smaller clay particles that have been worked into the surface pores over the centuries. This about spackling a wall full of nail holes before painting. As you soak and soften the embedded clay, the pitted surface becomes more pronounced. Have you ever wondered about scubbing a coin, putting it back into a soak, then scrubbing it again and seeing more 'black' go into the rinse water? You are dealing with particles that are less than 1 micron in size.

bruce

[krazy]

So, the "price" for cleaning almost the entire surface of the coin was this roughness...Bruce, you are absolutely right about that, it really makes sense and I guess this couldn't be avoided.

For those of you who want to know how this coin was cleaned, I will try to explain the 'process'. My first move was to soak the coin in a mixed DW/lemon juice solution, not more than one hour. After every soak, I used my fingers to remove the 'soft' dirt, let the coin in DW for 20-30 minutes, and then start scrubbing on the surface with toothpicks, carefully and not too much. I made this several times until the hard crust remained (especially on the letters). At this point I decided to let the coin soak only in lemon juice (also not more than one hour) and follow the same procedure described above. The best tool I used and recommend is patience