FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board

Numismatic and History Discussion Forums => Uncleaned Ancient Coin Discussion Forum => Topic started by: aragon6 on March 05, 2002, 11:08:57 am

Title: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: aragon6 on March 05, 2002, 11:08:57 am
As I was thinking about trying this on my "uncleanables" what is the problem with doing it this way?  :)
Title: Re:Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Joe Sermarini on August 02, 2003, 04:38:39 pm
If a coin is so encased in patina that you cannot see the details, removing the patina will only leave you an ugly pitted mess.  

Electrolysis is not for ancient coins, no matter how hard they are to clean.   Never.  On these boards I have seen proudly displayed pictures of coins cleaned with electrolysis - the supposed amazing detail that was once covered with rock hard deposits.  I am not amazed.  I see that these coins are worthless junk, stripped and pitted.  

Leave them for someone willing to take the time to clean them the right way.
Title: Re:Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Alex on August 04, 2003, 08:07:44 am
Lye is the better option for fully encrusted coins, not for dirty patinated coins.  Of course for that kind of coins is plain dumb to use both electrolysis or lye.   Still if you use lye to remove the dirt, you dont get bare metal but a transformed patina, brown color, probably a copper oxide.

I am not very sure about the concentration, but from what I heard is around 1/4 (or less)solid lye and 3/4 water.  Time? Depends, soak the coins untill the cleaning is done. Might take minutes might take days.
Title: Re:Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: kklinejr on August 04, 2003, 09:29:14 am
Hi Folks,

It is interesting to see that the electrolysis issue can still push a few buttons with people's thoughts and opinions.  I suppose that is the purpose of an open forum - to discuss opinions and to have logical debates.  

As for my four cents worth (inflation has struck) on the topic, the only time I see most "cleaners" running for the electrolysis set up is for the incredibly difficult outer crustations.  Dirt, uneven toning, and even slight granules on the surface do not warrant the use of electolysis.  Now, for those really, really hard crusties - the kind of outer coating that seems to be made of steel - many people have very different and very solidified opinions.

Several American & British musuems have been openly criticized for their undying devotion to electrolysis  in restoring dug items.  Those who protest the elec. treatment feel that a longer mechanical or less dramatic treatment should be invoked instead.  I, myself, was watching a program where a British archeologoist proudly displayed beautiful EF sestertii that had been cleaned right down to the bare medal.  He looked at them as beautiful artifacts that could attest to his country's history; I looked at them and wondered what type of patina had been destroyed- it all comes down to personal opinion and preference.  

Personally, I have used electrolysis on a total of, I think, 14 coins in the past three years ("processed" around 1900 total?).  These 14 candidates were, quite honestly, ones I lost patience with.  Of the 14, I later regretted using the process on half of them as their detail was magnificent, the other half were junkers  :).  Why did I use electrolysis in the first place?  Well - these coins all had a few things in common: they had been boiled, cooled, olive oil soaked, distilled water soaked, picked at under a microscope, and brushed for 12+ months without any avail.  I suppose, had these coins been handed over to another person for a few more months, his/her "new" patience would have created better results, but that's the name of the game - how far and long is a cleaner willing to go for a restored coin.  

Coin collecting and coin cleaning are two areas where devout opinions on likes/dislikes are incredibly forged in one's mind.  Some folk collect only EF early Republican denarii, whereas I would rather have a gorgeous EF AE4 from the 5th century.  Cleaning is the same way, some folks are manual/mechanical devotees, some zap everything that comes their way, while some, Hi, Rugser  ;D, leave the coin in its totally as found condition (cool idea, just wish I could follow through withthat one   :)).

I suppose my point in this entirely too long message is to quell the waters a bit... we all have our opinions on how ancient coins should be cleaned, and we all have viewpoints on the importance of patinated/non-patinated coins. In the end, it all comes down to personal preference.  If we are to discuss cleaning treatments, let's do it from a logical standpoint - not just simple "you're wrong, I'm right" tactics.  Let's keep this forum and our minds open to possibilities, not closed doors.  

There is a reason why people, myself included, prefer this discussion list over others, for the most part, personal egos very rarely come into play on this forum.  People just like talking about coins.  Let's keep it at that.

Take care,

Ken

ps- fritta, sorry this stuff came up on your thread.

pps- I would like to discuss the lye treament on another thread too.
Title: Re:Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Joe Sermarini on August 06, 2003, 12:30:30 pm
I knew my post would prompt disagreement, but I stand by it.  The best way to clean a fully encrusted coin is to chip away at the encrustation with a needle under magnification.  I realize that is far too much work for almost anyone.  But, someday (maybe 100 years from now) when uncleaned are very difficult to come by, a collector will be happy to take the time to do it.  Put the coin away and leave it for a future generation.  We are all just short term custodians for these coins.   If we don't destroy them, they will still be here when we are dust.  
Title: Re:Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Katharosteriphos on August 31, 2003, 08:06:07 pm
Forget electrolysis, take Phosphoric acid!!!!!!
It's the best (and the last) method to clean coins with rock hard deposits and crusts!!!
try it!!!!
K.

PS: be aware, take a 50/50 solution and DO NOT PUT YOUR FINGERS IN IT! otherwise your skin will disappear and the finger nails get very soft...
Title: Re:Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on September 01, 2003, 05:19:13 am
Please tell us more. All I know so far is that its harmful if swallowed or in contact with skin, and the vapour is just as bad. So only use it somewhere well-ventilated.
Title: Re:Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Katharosteriphos on September 01, 2003, 09:06:04 am
Phosphoric acid completely removes everything from the coin that is not metal.
it eats the patina, the dirt and everything else if you leave the coin in it too long.
I will scan 2 coins from my collection, then you'll see....

K.
Title: Re:Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: wolfgang336 on November 11, 2003, 09:23:44 pm
As I've said numerous times, in my opinion, electrolysis should only be used as last resort... Save the patina!!
Title: Re:Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Springbank on December 13, 2003, 08:33:34 pm
I have read this post in the hope that I would find out how people have set up an electrolysis cleaning system, and I guess that it is so controversial, that no one will.  On the other hand, I have a few coins that I would like to try it on, and I still want to know how to do it the "right" way, if there is one.  I understand the problem, and I promise not to use it on anything that has any, no matter how remote alternative.  On the other hand, I have a few coins that appear to be slugs, or or are so damaged, holed etc, that I can't imagine that anything else could be more damaging.  But if there is something there, it might be nice to see it.   I also collect firearms, and I know the value of originality, so I'm not going to "zap" something I shouldn't.  I have used electrolysis to remove copper from a gun bore, and I guess the same thing would work here, after reversing the current.   I keep hearing that "instructions are available on the internet," but so far I have not found them.   Any practical knowledge would be helpful, and if you don't want to post it, please send it to me directly.  I promise not to abuse the information, or abuse any coins that I can see anything of.
Title: Re:Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on December 14, 2003, 12:00:31 pm
I've tried both, and prefer lye. I just keep electrolysis in reserve for anything the lye doesn't cut through.
Title: Re:Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Ghengis_Jon on December 22, 2003, 09:14:57 am
I feel like the village idiot.  I've never had an even remotely positive experience with lye.
Title: Re:Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Scott101 on January 19, 2005, 09:40:04 pm
I can honestly say that I have had great success in cleaning objects using electrolysis.  However these objects are usually made of steel or cast iron.  I have had little success cleaning anything with detail, especially coins.  I tried two badly pitted and encrusted Romans and wish I had tried something else instead.  The rough lifeless finish that resulted is unacceptable to me.  I left each coin in the solution for less than 1/2 hour total time.  

Now I have to admit that the Mel Fisher labs in Key West, FL use electrolsis to clean the silver coins recivered from Spanish ship wrecks and has great success.  I believe that the viltage or amperage used is very low, as ther is no noticible reaction taking place in the large vats used to clean dozens of coins at a time.  I am sure that the electrolyte used in the water is also special and formulated for the silver coinage.   So far I have been unable to find out all of the details involved in the Fisher process.  I guess that the bottom line is that electrolysis does work under very controlled conditions and should probably not be attempted by a store-bought battery charger.  My 2 cents on the subject.
Title: Re:Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Federico M on February 03, 2005, 05:28:48 pm
We are all just short term custodians for these coins.   If we don't destroy them, they will still be here when we are dust.  

I was wandering how to explain this concept in English, but fear I cannot do better than Joe.
In any case, the imagine I have in my mind is something like this: don't think that you are helping a butterfly to fly... if you touch its wings with a too heavy hand, it will never fly again...

Federico
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Frans Diederik on April 26, 2005, 05:59:02 pm
Phosphoric acid in an 80 percent solution works fine, but it eats everything off the flan, apart from unoxidised copper/bronze. Coins that contain a high percentage of tin (e.g. Nemausus coins) clean very well and a greyish layer of tinoxide is left, which is not at all displeasing.
NEVER forget to reverse the chemical reaction by puting the coin in a water-soda solution after cleaning! Then boil it for at least ten minutes in distilled water; don't put different coins together, nor use tap water as the totally stripped coins are very sensitive to other metals/minerals (like a fingerprint on a new cent).
Electrolysis on silvered coins like antoniniani, can result in utter disappoinment or extreme joy - I have experienced both!
If the silver is well attached to the bronze, you'll get splendid results, but if there is an oxide layer in between the silver and the bronze, the silver remnants will all come off and leave you with a pitted core of a coin.
Of course you know that stripped coins can be made silverplated again by reversing the poles and using a solution containing silveroxide. The results are quite astonishing, but come close to forgery. Yet I have seen examples on Ebay!! beautiful silvering, even on worn places! Beware.
If I were you, I'd stick to mechanical cleaning with a fine copper brush (by hand or by machine like a Dremel)

Frans
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: wolfgang336 on November 28, 2005, 07:49:34 pm
Just for the sake of accuracy, I believe Curtis has said a few times that the BM does not wax its coins. Can't speak of the rest though, but it makes perfect sense that they would.

As for the original post, by HoneyCat, I find your views rather detestable and static, as you seem to not have seen many decent patinas. This is interesting, as you seem to think yourself an uncleaned dealer, and should have seen the incredible diversity and beauty of various patina types. I shall direct you here:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=9244.0

Hopefully you will compose a more articulate post, including arguable points, rather than this aimless ramble / rant.

Evan

ps. I'm really not this harsh in real life.
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Joe Sermarini on December 03, 2005, 12:15:02 am
Electrolysis sucks.  (Yes, I know, this is one of my most technical and sophisticated posts to date).
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on December 03, 2005, 12:26:18 pm
I've never been happy with a coin I'd electrolysed, but at the same time I wouldn't rule it out as a last resort.
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on February 01, 2006, 04:35:35 pm
I tell a lie; I've been reminded that I do have one electrolysed coin I'm happy with. It came with bits of bare metal sticking out of a sort of hard green tar-like stuff; I've never seen anything like it. Once it was zapped and repatinated, it turned into a nice Gallienus VIRTUS AVG. Naturally it would be nicer with a real patina, but you can't have everything.
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Carolus Magnus on February 01, 2006, 06:39:50 pm
Has anyone ever done a poll on this? As far as my opinion, I agree with Joe. If the romans wanted us to zap their pocket change, they would have struck them with wires attached. Being the logical type, thats why I figure they make so much oliveoil over there!
                                                                   Chuck T
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: saholz on July 07, 2006, 02:16:18 pm
I feel it's time to voice an opinion here.  I've been cleaning coins for several years now, and can't say I've ever come across one technique that's appropriate for all coins.  I certainly make every attempt to preserve a nice original patina, but that's not possible in every case.  Some of my coins have had lovely, smooth green patinas that allow some cleaning to reveal detail while preserving the lovely coating.  Others have had deep brown or black patinas that also stood up well to mild brushing and picking.  Other coins, however, come in with hard, crusty accretions that are not only ugly, but must be removed before any semblance of the original coin can even be glimpsed.  I've also seen many coins that had thick patinas that completely hid any detail on the coin.  Yet others have badly broken or patchy patinas, with bare metal showing through, that do nothing to enhance the appearance of the coin.

In the end it's a value judgement...often it's a case of whether the patina takes precedence over the attribution of the coin.  Ideally, we would all be left with coins that had lovely, original patinas with fine detail showing through.  I have plenty of coins just like that, but I also have many more that were impossible to identify without sacrificing the patina.

If a coin responds well to repeated soaks and brushing, I may then go to fine picking to reveal details and clean out the edges.  Some final brushing with a soft nylon brush and a treatment of Ren Wax and I'm done.  But, as the process goes on and the coin remains essentially hidden, I will resort to harsher methods.  I will use prgoressively harder brushes, longer soaks, add Calgon to try to cut through the mineral deposits, and even put my most stubborn coins in a lye soak if nothing else works.  I have had coins that were so badly encrusted that even a week soaking in lye wouldn't touch them.  Then, and only then, will I resort to the dreaded zapping. 

I've gotten some surprisingly good results out of the electrolysis tub.  Some hopeless looking coins responded well and, after re-patinating, looked really good.  Other coins, actually the majority of them, come out looking exactly like what they are...corroded remnants of ancient coins.

So, I'm one of those who feel there is not any one correct way of cleaning and/or restoring ancient coins.  It's all too dependent on the individual coin.  If it's good enough to preserve an original patina, great.  If not, I think it's proper to do what must be done to allow identification of the coin.  My best coins are the ones which I didn't have to strip or use chemicals on...of course.  But I have recovered some very nice examples from under hard, crusty layers of mineral deposits that could not be cleaned with brushes, picks, or any amount of soaking.

There's my opinion, for what it's worth.

Stan
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Scotvs Capitis on August 19, 2006, 03:18:59 pm
I tend not use a electrolysis until its the last resort i use some dull chemicals to strip of the dirt without harming the patina. The chemicals are very household common like bleach miked with windex.Jesse

Jesse, be very very careful with that particular mixture.

Ammonia (Windex) + Bleach = chlorine gas , a good way to die a painful death
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Raymond on September 08, 2006, 09:08:50 pm
I gave up on a small ugly Parthian plug.  I made a bath of sodium bicarbonate and hooked up the coin to the red terminal of a 9 volt battery while the black is hooked up to a nail also in the solution.  I got bubbles and steam, quite impressive, in a small way.  Question: does it make a difference if the coin is hooked up to the + or - side of the battery?  Also, how long before the bronze shines through like a newly minted coin?  I reaaly plan to cook this p/s/lug
Thanks
Raymond
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Raymond on September 09, 2006, 10:16:08 am
Yikes, I'd better go up and check!  Also, what strength solution would you recommend? I did about a couple of teaspoons in apprx. 1 cup water.
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: DruMAX on September 23, 2006, 09:17:52 pm
I think the under lying problem some might have with electrolysis is that it is often used as a short cut that can potentially destroy the coin.Even these small later emperial coins will eventually become more and more rare..

I personally like both types of coins. I like a nice patina on a coin but if there is a terrible looking patina I will strip the coin down to the metal with no regrets (not electrolysis)  and I have quite a few very nice coins that are stripped. I LIKE the nice clean metal as well as a perfect patina (and there ARE wonderful natural patinas, to say there aren't is absurd)...even some that are spotty, or mixed green/blues/blacks/browns can sometimes look fantastic.

I would say that I have always wanted a faster way to get past real hard dirt and I have quite a few coins that I have been cleaning for over a year now with distilled water, oil, brush, soap with periods of picking that still have a long way to go. I plan to possibly use a bit of lye but otherwise I think that if you are willing to wait long enough you will get down to where you need to be. I dont think there is any encrustation that NEEDS electrolysis unless you just dont want to put the time and effort into doing it the long way and are willing to possibly fry the coin. It seems a matter more of expediency than necessity. I could be wrong. I have been guilty of thinking coins had nothing and then after a year of soaks and scrubs, very slowly I start seeing more and more of the coin. I have a coin I bought from here that I though was a slug but I am now thinking after months of soaking that I will find some surface features on it. The rest of that uncleaned lot from Forum that has been being soaked, scrubbed and picked for months now and still I haven't seen any detail but I wont pull them until I get down to the metal (again last resort) to see if I cant find details...I will wait as long as it takes...will I find no detail and the time is wasted? maybe...but its not a lot of work...more a lot of waiting...but I might get a great coin out of it, then I will be very happy.

As a very last resort I have used mixtures that will strip the patina because 1. the coin was cleaned to the patina and still showed no detail, stripped them to the metal just to see if I could find ANYTHING AT ALL, 99% of the time I find nothing and it was a slug just like I thought but once in a blue moon you find a bit of detail. 2. VERY rare case when I feel a need to try to THIN a patina (tricky) I have never used electrolysis to strip them but other methods. 3. More often than not I end up with a coin down tot he metal because I over cleaned then decided instead of part metal part patina spotty look I would bite the bullet and clean it down.

In the end...I probably will never use electrolysis simply because I dont need to, even taking off the patina there are other ways.
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Raymond on September 25, 2006, 04:00:50 pm
The "zapping" is definitely a shortcut that I don't mind experimenting with on coins that to my untrained eye show little promise, such as dark smooth disks that barely offer a shadow on the surface, or a particularly rusty and cracked scyphate.
I have a small lot of uncleaned Greeks that I would never ever subject to such treatment!  Right now, they're simply soaking in olive oil.  I don't even want to use a brass brush on them.  Frankly, I'm scared to scratch or hurt the coins in any way and that's why after ten days, I still haven't played with them! 
The same goes for what I think might be a lepton, it's barely 10 mm in diameter, quite thin and I can't feel any ridges on the surfaces of the coin, yet there appears to be some faint colouration of what might be a pattern...  Am I wasting my time?
Raymond
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: saholz on January 12, 2007, 04:57:16 pm
I might as well add my two cents worth.  (Appropriate choice of words, I must say).  No one will argue that a coin with good detail and a lovely patina should be left alone.  In the world of uncleaned coins, however, that's not going to be a common sight.  Most of the coins we see are covered in dirt over a hard, crusty surface.  The question then becomes, how much of this encrustation must be removed to bring out the details of the coin?

Any time we clean a coin, surface material must be removed.  If a nice green or brown patina completely covers a coin to the point of obscuring surface detail, is it better to leave the coin obscured or remove as much of the patina as is needed?  My own opinion is that I'll remove as much of the surface encrustation or patina as I have to in order to show detail.  There are many coins which are so badly encrusted, however, that my normal cleaning regimen of distilled water soaks, scrubbing with nylon and brass brushes, and mechanical cleaning with dental picks and fine Dremel tips, just won't do the job.  It's at this point where the really difficult choices must be made.

If I absolutely can't get through the coin's crust with conventional means, I will then try lye soaks.  I know this will eliminate most, if not all, of any remaining patina, but I personally would rather have a lye soaked coin, that I can identify, than a green unidentifiable lump of crud.  Many of the worst coins I've had, have come out of a lye bath in surprisingly good shape.  To me, lye is a last resort that can provide good results if the coin still has good metal, poor results on porous coins.  It has the advantage of leaving a brown patina on the finished coin.

I've used electrolysis on many of my truly hopeless coins.  Sometimes, a coin is so heavily encrusted that even the lye won't break through.  In case like this, I will zap a coin.  I've had much less success with electrolysis than lye, probably because I only use it as a very last resort on my worst coins.  Zapped coins always require re-patination of some sort.  I really can't stand the bright brassy look of the coins as they come out of the solution.

So, in the end, this all comes down to a question of degrees.  How far are you willing to go to uncover the actual surface details that an encrustation may hide?  Nobody strips a perfectly good coin, so all we're talking about here is how we deal with coins that need to be cleaned in some form.  I don't think there's any right answer for all coins.  I've made mistakes with coins, where further cleaning actually destroyed what little detail was left and preserved in the patina itself.  I've also removed patina, or even stripped coins, in the cleaning process and wound up with coins that were stunning in their detail. 

I wish there was an easy and "correct" answer, but I don't think there really is.  We all want to wind up with the best coin we can after all the work we put into cleaning these things ... how we get there is likely to be an endless debate.

Stan
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Scotvs Capitis on February 01, 2007, 02:24:25 pm
Victor, what is the dirt-brown looking stuff in your coin in its uncleaned state? That coins looks like one I might have tried to clean with a diamond dusted dental pick. Your electrolysis results though are very nice indeed. There is a place for it, despite some who consider it pure evil.  :)
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Mark Lundgren on April 13, 2007, 05:33:31 pm
A couple more thoughts on electrolysis from a new-bee:

There's probably no point to mixing lemon juice and baking soda.  I don't know if it makes a good electrolyte, but you're mixing an acid and a base, so you're probably not getting the acidic effect of the lemon juice.  However,  I'm not a good enough chemist to say if you're creating better ions to carry current, or a more neutral pH solution that's better for the coins, but it sounds like an odd thing to do.  Now, I have noticed a base-like residue around coins after electrolysis, so I've thought of adding vinegar or lemon juice (to a salt electrolye), in order to have a slightly acid solution, to remove this residue (the generation of which, by the way, I can't explain).  Does anyone have any lore on this?

My big question is whether anyone can actually say why they think a salt solution (for a short period) is worse for the coins.  Current is controlled by the voltage, the concentration, and the proximity of the coin to the other electrode; it's not just driven by the choice of electrolyte.  So salt doesn't have to "burn" the coins.   I can assume that the chlorine ions (from salt) would ultimately be bad for the coins (bronze disease), but the chlorine (Cl-) is going the other way in electrolysis, away from the coin, to the positive electrode, so I'm not sure I see the problem.   Sure, the cholrine would get after the bronze after awhile, but so would the washing or baking soda, it would start eating the metal.  That's why they use a very low (5%?) concentration in the washing/baking soda combination used in soaks to stop bronze disease.   Are sodium ions worse than calcium ions? 

Enough problems, here's and answer and a helpful hint:

It's good to have bubbles at both electrodes.  That means you're getting action at the coin, and also the bubbles at the + electrode means your producing gas oxygen instead of oxidizing the + electrode and breaking it down.   I'm sure you've seen someone's rusty setup.

I've found that the best electrode material is carbon (not iron or stainless steel).  You can by carbon electrodes made for electrolysis at chemistry places, cheap, or you can cut open an old D size battery (NON-akyline NON NON NON or it squirts out dangerous liquid).  They eventually wear out, and can turn the water kind of black, but they're not creating bad ions.

PS:  I only use electrolysis for "hopeless" coins that trying to clean mechanically would ruin worse (wearing away lettering etc).  And, I soak the coins in distilled H2O afterward.

PPS:  I'm afraid of lye, and I also think it would quickly re-oxidize the coins.

Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: bruce61813 on June 29, 2007, 02:20:43 pm
You can scrub off the crude every once in awhile. It is the stuff that comes off the coin, and it does tend to become an insulator. But there is never a lot of current flowing in the system.

I find that a low voltage, 6 VDC and low current, less than 1 amp, works fine. I only work with one coin at a time, and as others have noted, it takes awhile to clean the coins. But if you take it slow, you can stop before you get to bald metal.

Bruce
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: AdonisRock on December 13, 2007, 03:03:39 am
hey i decided to give this a go on some crusties i have,  seeing as my brother wouldn't let me use his battery charger for his motorbike (i believe his words were 'You're a [expletive] idiot, you will [expletive] kill yourself.' i've hooked it to a 6v battery out of a dolphin torch.  after about 15 minutes the water had turned yellow and there was a brown foam floating on the surface.. I've just chucked a full crusty in there and i'm gonna leave it overnight and see what happens.  I'll post results if there is anything interesting to tell. 


*edit* ok, so the crusty didn't work, the coin didn't start bubbling, and the spoon i was using grew like a blue fur on it??  I was using sodium carbonate.  Perhaps the battery is to weak? since there is not really any exposed metal, just rock.

I have replaced the crusty with another coin that appears to be a slug, with a thick black patina, and am using mediterranean sea salt from my pantry.   and it has started bubbling away, I will leave it in there a few hours and see if anything happens.
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Raymond on December 25, 2007, 08:12:39 am
 :o Never ever use salt as an elecrolyte, the CL will corrode the coin.
Raymond
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: AdonisRock on January 03, 2008, 03:12:45 am
Following up from my last post, I've zapped a few coins, the small crusties stripped back to bare metal in a couple of hours with the 6 volt batteries, but came out as junk, No great loss as I never would've gotten through the layer of rock otherwise to see what they were.  I also left a larger coin overnight which turned out to be a decent Volusion.  Now i'm trying some first century near-slugs and crusties, so we'll see what happens.

Raymond- I have been using Sodium Carbonate, as opposed to table salt.. I realised I was just being impatient, and sometimes I'd have to wait 5 or ten minutes for it to start for some reason? maybe I should mix the water well in advance to make sure the crystals have all dissolved properly.

All in all this setup seem to be pretty good, especially on larger coins. 

Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Raymond on January 03, 2008, 07:04:52 am
If the edges of the coin start turning blue, or the coin looks like something picked out of ashes of a barbecue pit, you are probably using too much current, i.e. your amperage is too high / resistance too low.  I obtained decent results on a couple of coins using a simple used 9v transistor battery, in bursts of 5-10 minutes; I would pick away at the coin after every "therapy" session.   Slow is better and it is possible to "overcook" the coin.
Decent additional info on zapping can be found at http://tomross.ancients.info/.  Just remember, it's not a cure-all and is not the lazy person's method to clean and avoid using elbow-grease which is what I was looking for!
Raymond
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: bruce61813 on January 03, 2008, 12:04:32 pm

If you want and intresting experiment, take a teaspoon of lemon juice in 4 ounces of olive oil, mix very well, add a crusted coin and heat.


I am not feeling all that adverturous today.... what happens?


This is for silver coins only, it works but is not good for copper based coins. The result is rapid, safe removal of encrustations from silver coins. But it will remove all oxides and oxide formations, so debased silver will appear pitted if the copper is really oxidized.

A second note, you can't really control the current during electrolysis, you can control the voltage.  Also sodium carbonate is a poorer electrolyte that sodium chloride, therefore the current will be less, and as was mentioned, the chloride in NaCl has long term effects on the coins. If the edges of the coins turn blue, you are over heating them, the blue indicates that the edges have reached annealing temperature [about 900 deg F] for copper, and that is way too  much energy.  As I noted earlier, I use a plug in source of 6 volts, maximum current of 1.8 amps.
It is slow, but does a good job. Also I use a mix of sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate [actually I use Gringgotts #1] .

Bruce
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Raymond on February 26, 2008, 09:50:29 pm
The crud that accumulates on the (-) anode (?), I believe, does scraping it off hasten the reaction?
Raymond
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Mayadigger on February 26, 2008, 10:38:57 pm
Ave!

The crud that accumulates on the (-) anode (?), I believe, does scraping it off hasten the reaction?
Raymond

It does for me!

Kevin
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Raymond on February 26, 2008, 11:38:41 pm
keep zapping or go mechanical now?
Raymond
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: rick fox on May 31, 2008, 04:04:24 pm
I use electrolysis for cleaning the uncleanables.  My process is incredibly simple.  A plastic container, an electrolyte and a 12 volt battery.

Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on June 01, 2008, 06:51:31 pm
here's a coin that was, until now, a total loss to me, tons of encrustations.  Too bad I didn't take the before pic.  Now, it's still worn, but I can see something!  I'm assuming it's a Ric 85, Claudius II with Salus AVG rev.  Can't tell if it's IMP C CLAVDIVS or IMP CLAVDIVS...
I zapped it :evil:
Do I smooth it out with black rubber bullets and then Dellarize? Or will my attempt to smooth sand off the little that remains of the details?
Raymond

Dellerise it as it is if you want to, but otherwise it's done.
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Mark Lundgren on July 22, 2008, 01:27:07 am
I want to suggest carbon electrodes for those doing electrolysis
(instead of spoons, or what-ever).  You can buy them for very very
little $ from hobby chem stores or sites.  They tend to break down after
awhile, but the carbon is inert (compared to a metal), and you don't get
a huge mess of rust or other by-products.  Just hook an aligator clip to
the top, out of the solution.


FYI:  My personal inclination is to save electrolysis
for only those coins so encrusted they can't be realistically
mechanically cleaned, or ID'd
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Danny S. Jones on July 30, 2009, 11:18:11 pm
I could post a few before and after pics here, but I'm too ashamed. I've zapped coins straight to Hades trying to clean them. It's a process I'll never use again. Not that I like to clean coins. (At least not right now, after 4 hours of scrubbing and picking.)  I'm sitting here right now looking at 121 globs of dirt-crusted Roman relics on my desk. Some are in olive oil. Some are in piles. Some are in plastic holders. I spent the last four hours with my five year old daughter scrubbing coins with a toothbrush. As a matter of fact, right now I'm HATING coin cleaning. I just irreparably damaged a coin by stripping the patina off and finding absolutely NOTHING underneath. Not that I was trying to strip the patina. Three strokes from a nylon bristled toothbrush did the trick. It all came off... the legend, the mintmark, the image. Everything.

To all you zapp-happy folks out there, please remember that PATINA IS THE COIN. Sometimes there is nothing below the patina layer except a beautifully flat and rusty plug of useless metal.
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Jaimelai on August 08, 2009, 12:19:37 am
At this point in my ancient coin cleaning career, I only zap the occasional blank slug - just to see what may be hiding beneath that smooth encrusting patina.  Nine times out of ten you find only a shiny metal cratered moon surface, but every once in a while you find something like this.

It started as a nearly smooth slug that I had found beneath a layer of hard mud/clay which I had previously removed  by soaking/scrubbing/picking.  There was almost no detail showing and a large red boil.  I thought for sure that beneath the red there would be a deep pit, but I zapped it anyway.  After about 30 seconds I could see the encrustation starting to fall off, so I removed the coin and gave it a quick soak in DI followed by some poking under the microscope with a sharp bamboo skewer to loosen the now blacken encrustation, then a quick brush with a toothbrush in DI water.  Still some remaining encrustation, including the red boil, so the process was repeated.  A little more came off revealing more coin detail, but still the boil remained, so the process was repeated.  This time the rest of the crud came off including the blister which only left a small rough patch behind (in the upper neck area).  This coin was has not been re-patinated or waxed, just brushed with a soft nylon brush prior to taking the pic. It was a the 96th coin of a lot of 100 uncleaned coins, but it may have been the best of the lot.
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: bruce61813 on August 08, 2009, 03:45:00 pm
This link may help a little
http://www.monitorcenter.org/preserving/process


For those of you that like to use electrolysis, you will note if you read the the reference CzarMike provided uses a low voltage, 3.5 volts or so, not 9 or 12 volts. I use a 4.5 VDC unit from Radio shack. It is small, about 1 inch x 1.5 inches x .75 inches, think of a small match box. It is capable of 1500 ma, so there is power if needed. Also note they use a base electrolytic solution of sodium carbonate or sodium hydroxide. Never use NaCl, it will ruin your coins. the low voltage works slower and allows time to mechanically work on the coins between sessions. I use the BD treatment mixture instead of just sodium carbonate, as it works the same, and will help neutralize the effects of salts.

Bruce
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: Constantine IV on December 31, 2011, 08:50:07 am
After trying Electrolysis on a "Victory Advancing" coin of Valentinian, I regret doing so. I would say it is better to use "natural" cleaners like distilled water, vinegar/lemon juice. Then brush of any crud with a nylon brush. Patience is the virtue. I found that given time, it is easier to clean, the "hard to clean" parts become easier to clean of, even by nail. Electrolysis just seems to make a mass of dark goop, rather than actually clean.
And in the end, some coins are damaged by time, and it is irrepairable.
Title: Re:Electrolysis: Beginner Help
Post by: Lee S on February 28, 2014, 10:20:15 am
A tip for the impatient cleaner (aka something that I wish I had known when I first started zapping...)

If you know that you are going to be stripping the coin down to the bare metal anyways, try to get as much of the crud off manually before zapping the coin.

I thought that electrolysis was going to be a quick and easy cure, but the more junk there is on the coin, the longer it will take to zap (and we're talking hours in some cases).


Thanks for sharing information..I will try out the method as I need to clean lots of old coins and hope it works.

Hi Adolph...

  Remember that electrolysis is generally a method of "last resort", to save for coins that have not responded to the time tested methods of soaking in distilled water, olive oil, or one of the many solutions available for sale out there...

 Also, if you have "lots of old coins", remember that not all will require the same cleaning process, if you zap them, you will have ( if they are good quality ancient romans, for example..) perhaps a 1 in 10 return... ( if you are lucky!) and you will have coins stripped of patina.. and unless you are REMARKABLY lucky, most of their value...

If you use the traditional soaking and scrubbing method you may have a 50%+ return... ( I am plucking these figures out the air... it depends entirely on the quality of the coins you start with, but the ratio will remain the same... a minimum of 5 to 1 better success with soaking and scrubbing )

 If you post some photos of the coins you are going to clean in a new thread then you will get more detailed information from one of the many experienced cleaners on here, but you must remember, you cant have your cake and eat it... I have cleaned coins with electrolysis with spectacular results, but I also have a jar full of blank slugs, some of which, with hindsight could have been attractive additions to my collection!!!

 Best wishes,

Lee.
 
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: areich on February 28, 2014, 10:57:18 am
See? That is the reason why I would always advise against it. A few people may be able to judge accurately which coins will profit from electrolysis but most will use it as a weapon of mass destruction.
Title: Re: Electrolysis cleaning?
Post by: bruce61813 on May 25, 2014, 04:19:13 pm
I will make comment that i have made many times before:

1. Never use salt water [NaCl and water] as the electrolyte bath. this is too highly conductive , and the current flow will burn the coin.

2. Use a soda bath, a mix of baking soda and washing soda or just one of them, gives a very slow and controllable clean. Used with a 6 vdc source and you will find it very controllable.

3. Connect the coin to the correct terminal, it should be the  negative (cathode), if you see a lot of bubbles coming off the coin, you have it on the wrong terminal.
this could be a reason for a silver coin being destroyed, the silver was dissolved as it was the positive [anode].

It does work, work in 3 to 5 minute runs, with scrubbing between trials.


Bruce61813