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Author Topic: Coin with countermarks ID  (Read 853 times)

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Offline Alex S2

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Coin with countermarks ID
« on: September 13, 2021, 06:16:58 am »
Dear Forvm Community,

Does anyone know anything about these countermarks?

The one on the obverse looks like someone's head?

And on the reverse, IDK, an arrow maybe?

15.3 gr.
27mm

Thanks a lot for your help

Alex

Offline Alex S2

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Re: Coin with countermarks ID
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2021, 06:24:18 am »
photos

Offline Alex S2

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Re: Coin with countermarks ID
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2021, 01:11:58 pm »
Does anyone know any resources online/offline on this topic?

Would appreciate any info.

Many thanks,

Alex

Offline Altamura

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Re: Coin with countermarks ID
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2021, 01:52:32 pm »
... Does anyone know any resources online/offline on this topic? ...
See here: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=126238.msg759468#msg759468

Regards

Altamura

Offline George X

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Re: Coin with countermarks ID
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2021, 08:21:42 pm »

Offline Altamura

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Re: Coin with countermarks ID
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2021, 01:54:57 am »
... some of my research lead me to ...
Perhaps I was a bit too focused on Greek coinage :-\, for Roman there is more, that's right.

To add is for this context the work by Ulrich Werz, "Gegenstempel auf Aesprägungen der frühen römischen Kaiserzeit im Rheingebiet - Grundlagen, Systematik, Typologie -", Winterthur 2009, downloadable here:
http://publikationen.ub.uni-frankfurt.de/frontdoor/index/index/docId/6876
It again covers only a part of time and space, but contains a huge amount of material and analyses. The catalog of the countermarks is in part II.

Regards

Altamura

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Coin with countermarks ID
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2021, 10:29:31 am »
Hi AS2,

There are 2 countermarks on the obverse.

The one on the reverse may be a thunderbolt.

Meepzorp

Offline Alex S2

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Re: Coin with countermarks ID
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2021, 07:45:29 am »
Altamura, George, thank you guys for all of the links :) +++ +++ +++

Meepzorp, thanks, haven't noticed that one, until you mentioned.

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Coin with countermarks ID
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2021, 10:46:47 pm »
Dear Alex S2, Meepzorp, Altamura, George X, and Board,

Identifying the countermarked coin first can be instrumental in uncovering the identit(ies) of the countermark(s).  This is not always possible, of course, but with your coin, Alex, I believe it hails from Syrian Antioch and was struck under Augustus.  For the specific type, the possibilities seem to be:

https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/4247a

https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/4247b

On Alex's coin, the outline of the emperor's head, plus the first two letters of "IMP," can be seen on the side with the two countermarks.  On the reverse, one of the groups of laurel leaves has miraculously survived the three countermarks and the ravages of time (seen at 12:00 in the photo).  My Augustan attribution (and preference for RPC I 4247b) is based on the shape of said leaves and some of the evidence to follow.   
       
Now for the countermarks themselves.  The thunderbolt stamp appears to be Howgego 472, known on the following Antiochene coin types of Claudius:

https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/4277

https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/4280

 From Howgego's work, he notes that "since it is paired on one coin with cmk 736 (FVLM), it is almost  certain to be a countermark of XII Fulminata. This is supported by its
 presence in the Brunk hoard, which contained 13 coins with other countermarks  of the legion." 
 
As for the punch with kufic-like lettering, it is most likely Howgego 695, known again on Anticohene coins, but this time of Augustus:

https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/4247b

https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/4264

From Howgego, we have these lengthy comments (comparatively speaking) on the countermark:

"Some of the countermarks were mistakenly engraved in mirror image, e.g. Brunk 117.  'Manou' alternated with 'Abgar' (cmk 696) as the name of the head of the royal line of Edessa, see E. Babelon, 'Numismatique d' Edesse en Mesopotamie', Melanges numismatiques vol.2, 1893, pp.209-96, especially p.240 (pl.3).  It is uncertain which Manou is represented, but the countermark is probably to be dated before AD 115-16 because it was overstamped by cmks 725 and 736 (q.v.; and see p.18).  The countermark thus adds to the sparse evidence for the development of Syriac at Edessa (for which see F. Millar, 'Paul of Samosata, Zenobia and Aurelian: the church, local culture and political allegiance in third-century Syria', JRS 61 (1971), 1-17, at 3, with the references given there)."

Countermark #3 on Alex's coin is likely later than its two companions as it slightly cuts into Howgego 695, but by how much is still uncertain to me.  I initially thought the bust looked a bit like Geta, and perhaps it is, but nothing in Howgego has matched so far.  I will try to let the board know if I stumble on anything of further interest. 

That is all for tonight.


Best regards,   

Mark Fox
Michigan

Offline dadangus

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Re: Coin with countermarks ID
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2021, 04:05:19 am »
one of the reasons I love Forum Ancient Coins is the extraordinary sharing of knowledge and opinions all given freely and generously .
I know each time I log on I discover how little I know just by browsing these questions and answers. I am fascinated and humbled at the same time . I have always had a surge in curiosity with countermarked coins .Perhaps because it is inescapable evidence that the coin was handled more than once. 
Thank you to everyone who  makes my educational experience such a pleasure .
malcolm angus

 

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