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Author Topic: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina  (Read 138687 times)

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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #350 on: September 15, 2006, 07:58:13 am »
Thanks, Claude.

The Fel Temp is unsold from their previous sale, but these Chi-Rho coins I havn't seen before - they do seem to have the same patina.

Magnentius Fel Temp standard:

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Magnentius/Decentius Chi-Rho:

[BROKEN LINKS REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Is it OK to post these links here? If not I'll edit them out.

Ben

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #351 on: September 15, 2006, 09:44:20 am »
I will have a browse through Bastien to see if I can find any die linkages for these coins. It may not help but is probably a worthwhile exercise. I am not sufficiently familar with these coins to comment on stylistic issues.
Regards,
Martin

Offline Jeff Clark

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #352 on: September 15, 2006, 10:28:37 am »
Peter makes a good point which Numerianus dismissed immediately and Peter backs off.  As I feared we are talking apples and oranges.  There is no doubt that many M coins, if ancient, were the products of ancient forgerers and not official.  Die links are even rarer for these unofficial copies than they are for official ones.  And consider, for instance, that I don't own a single die link for a late Roman Constantine era coin!
I am no longer interested in the general debate over this and that and will bow out again for another extended period of time. 
Jeff Clark

vozmozhno

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #353 on: September 15, 2006, 11:43:44 am »
CGB has labeled several of the above coins as "imitation" by which I assume they mean barbarous. Although I don't know this series, I've seen many photos of the type and these examples once again stick out like sore thumbs. Weird, weird, weird.

Voz

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #354 on: September 15, 2006, 02:05:29 pm »
Some of those (official or not?) do look odd, but it'll be interesting to hear from Martin whether Bastien has any similar styles.

One of the CGB RIC 154's does look fairly like my own, but with a more elongated face:

Ben

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #355 on: September 15, 2006, 03:14:45 pm »
Those don't look at all like official mint products, but I'm told that unofficial chi-rho's are extremely rare. I do have one, but it's overstruck on a GLORIA EX, and quite crude.
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allobrogius

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #356 on: September 15, 2006, 04:29:56 pm »
Bonsoir,

If you read well the comments following the description of this coin,it is said :
" prendra le numéro 197e dans le supplément III du Bastien "(I d'ont translate ).....
and so on for the otthers.
Claude-

Stat" Monnerons'coins" volvitur orbis

hooverman

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #357 on: September 15, 2006, 05:51:38 pm »
Bonsoir,

If you read well the comments following the description of this coin,it is said :
" prendra le numéro 197e dans le supplément III du Bastien "(I d'ont translate ).....
and so on for the otthers.
Claude-

Stat" Monnerons'coins" volvitur orbis

Mmmmm, this is somewhat intriguing, in what way do they stay constant while the world turns???
Any other info on the dies (or others!!) you saw advertised on ebay fr Monsieur Claude??

Offline Numerianus

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #358 on: September 16, 2006, 11:48:50 am »
I think that the problem of authenticity of the monneron coins is closed because a  representative
sample, probably, hundreds, were examined and certified by CGB.  Have their conclusions less weight than that of Sear (by the way,
who also confirmed the authenticity of some M coins)? As for Gallic  mints  they, apparently, have better expertise.  Of course, someone may have doubts about the reliability of  the alloy study, but  all results  confirms the hypothesis of authenticity.

So, the question is  about the origin of this coins. The rarety and grades of coins of the catalogue makes
the hypothesis  of a modern collection less probable.  If it was a collection, it is  the most extraordinary collection and nobody
knew about its existence. The percentage of coins from unofficial mints is too high.
May it happen that donators preferred to give to the temple coins of local mints, unusual or suspicious? 

pulvinar

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #359 on: September 16, 2006, 04:07:24 pm »
Quote
Of course, someone may have doubts about the reliability of  the alloy study, but  all results  confirms the hypothesis of authenticity.

No.  The alloy study only demonstrated that the composition of silver in 17 M coins varied from each other and that the pattern of alloy differences "appeared" to be the same as that of a standard hoard.  No direct comparison was made between the 17 M coins and the standard hoard.

I hate to be a stickler about this point, but I don't want people to go around saying that there is irrefutable "scientific proof" of the M coins authenticity.  Any direct comparisons with samples large enough to give one confidence in the results have not been undertaken. 

There is indirect evidence and opinion ONLY for the M coins at this juncture.

Pul

Offline Numerianus

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #360 on: September 16, 2006, 05:43:00 pm »
Well, it is better to say, "do not reject the hypothesis of authenticity". 

Offline *Alex

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #361 on: September 16, 2006, 08:28:09 pm »
May it happen that donators preferred to give to the temple coins of local mints, unusual or suspicious? 

If the known donative deposits in Britain are anything to go by then the answer is yes. The majority of the coins found in such deposits are "substandard" in some way being either very worn, obsolete, damaged or barbaric. However, the Monneron coins which I have seen are for the most part very well preserved (although some of them are undoubtedly barbaric). This would seem to make those coins which are for sale:
a) Only a very small proportion of a much larger hoard. In which case where are all the thousands of substandard coins?
b) Deposited in a very short space of time. By the range of types and rulers this is patently not the case.
c) A very unusual hoard.

I am not questioning the general authenticity of the coins, but I have reservations about the veracity of the "Temple Hoard" story, nevertheless, could it really be that truth is stranger than fiction?

Alex.



Offline Numerianus

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #362 on: September 17, 2006, 01:34:06 am »
Alex, for me your analysis is the most persuasive.

So, we should think about a huge hoards found 20-30 years ago (dozens of thousands coins).
A large sample of rare and barbaric coins (thousands?) was selected by a collector having  reference documents
at hand.  Unfortunately, he made an error and depatinated  coins of his selection.  Recently, this coins were
auctioned by monneron.  This hypothesis seems to be realistic. The "usual"  part of the  hoards was not depatinated
and was disperses smoothly and unnoticeably.  Though there is another large collection of Constantine period (more specialized), 
currently on auctions,  containing even a more astounding selection than the monneron strings. 
I wonder why nobody tries to relate the both.

However, I do not abondon  the idea  of  temple tresurer-collector.

Offline EX.NVMMIS

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #363 on: February 13, 2007, 02:27:11 pm »
THIS COINS ARE ABSOLLUTELLY FAKES... ANY DOUBT.. SEE THE STYLES.. THE DRAP, THE EYES...
Valentinianvs

 

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