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Author Topic: Ptolemy Tet but which Ptolemy?  (Read 751 times)

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Offline Jay GT4

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Ptolemy Tet but which Ptolemy?
« on: October 17, 2009, 06:43:40 pm »
Got back from the Torex show today and among other things I got a Ptolemy Tetradrachm.  I bought it as Ptolemy VIII but how do you know? Looking at year dates I found a match to Ptolemy XII with the year date LIH.  So...which Ptolemy is it? and how do you know?  Portrait styles?  Needless to say Greeks are not my main area of collecting!

Here is a quick pic I took.  Excuse the reflective light from the flash, it's much better in hand then the photo.  Thanks in advance!


Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Ptolemy Tet but which Ptolemy?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2009, 09:01:29 pm »
while the artistic style changed over a couple centures *all* of the Ptolemy head portraits on the series of tetradrachms for 200-300 yrs are identified by scholars as representing 'Ptolemy I'.  essentially the ruler portrait was 'fixed' over all that time, though you can indeed see differences between early and later renderings of the venerated founder of the empire.  this gave the coinage a continuity of recognition over long periods of time.  in a sense it's like the way Alexander the Great and Lysimachos and Athens (Athena/owl) tetradrachms were issued and reissued (with some stylistic variations) for hundreds of years as recognizable types.

likewise, on the reverse of Ptolemaic tetradrachms we almost always see a closed-wing eagle facing left - and various letters or monograms (occasionally other symbols as well).  in late 2nd to 1st C. BC some of these letters and monograms indicate dates that have an L next to the Greek letter of the date (as on this coin) and/or mint locations.  because certain date ranges can be linked to certain rulers we can get a pretty good idea which ruler issued certain of the later dated tetradrachms, but it is probably not the actual portrait of that specific king is on the obverse; just a stylized portrait of Ptolemy I.

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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Ptolemy Tet but which Ptolemy?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2009, 09:08:58 pm »
Thank you!

 So I guess the question now is...who issued this coin?  The LIH reignal date occurs on which Ptolemaic Tetradrachms?  I know for certainty it occurs on Ptolemy XII, does it occur on any others? I see the very pronounced brow on my speciman matches Ptolemy XII issues...but I'd like to nail this down!

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Ptolemy Tet but which Ptolemy?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2009, 10:57:26 pm »
After looking at all the Ptolemy Tet's I could find online I believe it is Ptolemy XII.  The style of the "LIH" with the "L" being higher and looking more like another "I" and the pronounced brow is leading me to this conclusion.

Ptolemy the VI has the same year date but the LIH is straight and the L is very distinct as an L.  LIH is a rare date for Ptolemy VI so I am ruling him out.

Forum also shows a Cleopatra VII with Ptolemy XV with the same LIH year date with the L being higher.

This is tough!

Offline mihali84

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Re: Ptolemy Tet but which Ptolemy?
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2009, 01:49:32 am »
Quote from: Titus Pullo on October 17, 2009, 10:57:26 pm
After looking at all the Ptolemy Tet's I could find online I believe it is Ptolemy XII.  The style of the "LIH" with the "L" being higher and looking more like another "I" and the pronounced brow is leading me to this conclusion.

Ptolemy the VI has the same year date but the LIH is straight and the L is very distinct as an L.  LIH is a rare date for Ptolemy VI so I am ruling him out.

Forum also shows a Cleopatra VII with Ptolemy XV with the same LIH year date with the L being higher.

This is tough!


I believe you are right in your conclusion that the coin was indeed minted under Ptolemy XII.  The style, and the date LIH, (L) IH = 18 (=64/3 BC), as you have pointed out all point to Ptolemy XII.  I believe the reference is Svoronos 1865 (Cleopatra VII); BMC 113, 33 (Ptolemaeus XI), SNG Cop 389,.
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Ptolemy Tet but which Ptolemy?
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2009, 12:35:24 pm »
Thank you.  I'll take better pictures and put it in my gallery!
If anyone else has any opinions...

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Ptolemy Tet but which Ptolemy?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2009, 02:04:56 pm »
Quote from: Titus Pullo on October 17, 2009, 10:57:26 pm
After looking at all the Ptolemy Tet's I could find online I believe it is Ptolemy XII.  The style of the "LIH" with the "L" being higher and looking more like another "I" and the pronounced brow is leading me to this conclusion.

Ptolemy the VI has the same year date but the LIH is straight and the L is very distinct as an L.  LIH is a rare date for Ptolemy VI so I am ruling him out.

Forum also shows a Cleopatra VII with Ptolemy XV with the same LIH year date with the L being higher.

This is tough!


Welcome to the somewhat unusual world of Ptolemaic coinage.  The fixed tetradrachm portraits and centuries-long similar bronze designs reflect an intentional continuity of a state institution in an empire that had little central monetary organization before the arrival of the Ptolemaic state.

'L' means 'year'.  IH is year 18.  And in this context it is ambiguous - either 64BC (modern scholars like Morkholm, Noeske, etc.) or 34BC (Svoronos).

So it's either Ptolemy XII (modern interpretation) or Cleopatra VII ruling with Ptolemy XIV or Ptolemy XV or Ptolemy XVI (Svoronos interpretation).

It's amazing how intently folks obsess about precise Ptolemaic reignal attributions but no one seems to care which 'ruler' issued various posthumous Alexander the Great tetradrachms or other 'fixed portrait type' coins.  Ruler obsession is optional if you like the coin, so don't worry - be happy. 

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Re: Ptolemy Tet but which Ptolemy?
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2009, 05:14:14 pm »
Confussing to say the least.  Thanks for letting me try to work it out myself! ;D
I rather like the coin so I'm not going to obsess on it!
New picture here:

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Ptolemy Tet but which Ptolemy?
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2009, 10:45:46 pm »
Quote from: Titus Pullo on October 18, 2009, 05:14:14 pm
Confussing to say the least.  Thanks for letting me try to work it out myself! ;D
I rather like the coin so I'm not going to obsess on it!
New picture here:


Confusing?  Moreso than the posthumous Alexander tetradrachms?

But, as I said, welcome to the peculiar world of Ptolemaic coinage.  It has its own set of rules :)

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