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Author Topic: Unknown AE35 Julia Domna Provincial Discussion  (Read 1611 times)

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Offline Mark Fox

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Unknown AE35 Julia Domna Provincial Discussion
« on: February 28, 2011, 01:15:26 pm »
Dear Board,

I thought this was the best way to publish my research on a mystery Roman provincial of Julia Domna belonging to a list member on Moneta-L.  I apologize in advance for the photos, but they are all that I have to work with.  The coin measures 35mm in diameter and weighs 17.8 grams. 

As the owner of the piece noted, the style looks Cilician.  After much fruitless browsing, this hunch showed some promise when I located the following entry in Isegrim

52. Description (100796)
geändert: 08 Nov 2000
ERD: AM
PRO: CILICIA PEDIAS
PO : ADANA
PZ : Between 193 and 217
Obverse
VSG: ..A.. SEB
VT : PORTRAIT WOMAN R / IULIA DOMNA <?>
Reverse
RSG: ADRIANWN ADANEWN
RT : HEAD WOMAN R / DEMETER <?>
RA : STEPHANE <?> / VEIL / CLOTHES
Technical details
M : AE
GEW: 5.02(1)
Bibliographical references
ZIT: SLG LINDGREN III 746(1)
Additional remarks
FR : VS: ..A.. SEB RS: ADRIANWN ADANEWN

I knew right away that the weight of the Lindgren III specimen was a problem, as was the reverse inscription which didn't make sense in certain areas.  And yet, the design elements sounded very similar, and merited further investigation.  Quite happily, I own a copy of Lindgren III.  What I discovered last night is explained in my next post, which I refer to you now...   


Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Unknown AE35 Julia Domna Provincial Discussion
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2011, 01:47:01 pm »
Dear Board,

As you can see from the first pair of attachments, Lindgren III 746 is very different from what Isegrim described:  no stephane and no cornucopiae!  A disappointing and dangerous inaccuracy for those who don't have Lindgren III.  In fact, I was fairly certain from reading the Isegrim entry that the mystery bust on the Moneta-L coin was most likely not Tyche, but now I am not so sure, especially after noticing another coin in Lindgren on the same page:  Lindgren III 752, seen here in the last two attachments.  The image quality of many coins in this volume have much to be desired, and this one is no exception.  But a careful and patience eye will note a stark similarity with the mystery reverse design under question, even though the inscriptions don't match at all. 

It is here now that I will let others weigh in.  Thank you in advance for any leads!


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan         

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Unknown AE35 Julia Domna Provincial Discussion
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2011, 02:05:32 pm »
Dear Board,

Wait a minute...  am I going blind?  The Isegrim entry doesn't mention a cornucopiae!   I must have been confused with a different entry?  How embarrassing.  I must be getting tired with this coin...  Julia Domna provincials often do exhaust the mind, I have found.


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan   

Offline archivum

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Re: Unknown AE35 Julia Domna Provincial Discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2011, 09:08:38 am »

I have not checked the SNG picture, but this text-entry looks pretty promising:

PRO: PONTUS
PO : AMASIA
PZ : Between 206 and 207 
TIG: ADR / SEY / ANT / MHT / NE / PR
 Obverse
VSG: IOYLIA DOMNA SEBASTH
VT : PORTRAIT WOMAN R / IULIA DOMNA
VA : CLOTHES
 Reverse
RSG: ADR SEY ANT AMASI MHT NE PR ET ST'
RT : HEAD WOMAN R / TYCHE
RA : CORNUCOPIAE / TURRETED / VEIL / CLOTHES
RF : YEAR ST' <209>
 Technical details
M  : AE
GEW: 11.23(1) / 11.12(2)
ST : 06(2)
 Bibliographical references
ZIT: SNG AUL 31(1)
VGL: COLL PARIS(2) <ANAZARBUS 27A> / SLG DUESSELDORF 15902(2)
 Additional remarks
FR : VS: IOYLIA DOMNA SEBASTH RS: <AD>R SEY ANT AMASI MHT NE PR ET ST' 
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Unknown AE35 Julia Domna Provincial Discussion
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2011, 09:46:27 am »
Dear Archivum and Board,

Thanks for the lead!  I had seen that entry too, and was initially split over that city and Adana---until I realized my blunder with the cornucopiae.  I suppose that is one reason why I have slowed my research on the coin recently.  I was, however, planning on reinvestigating Amasia and perhaps another city or two when time permitted, but I don't have any of the relevant SNGs.  I would be very appreciative is someone could indeed produce an image of the Amasian coin cited in Isegrim!  It does sound promising, and the 'Y' shaped letter form which I had assumed was an upsilon when I had first saw it (at ~9:00), may in fact be just that after all.   

Thanks again for your help, Archivum.  Just so you know, your post on the Greek bronze with the seated deity has not been forgotten.  I have been casually working on it probably daily.  I sincerely doubt it is from Sicily, by the way, as I know the seller personally.   


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan   

Offline Pscipio

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Re: Unknown AE35 Julia Domna Provincial Discussion
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2011, 12:13:34 pm »
I had found SNG Aulock 31 when you posted the thread but it is not only much smaller, the style is also different, the city-goddess is veiled, the cornucopiae is behind her rather than in front, and there is a date in the field which I don't see in yours.

Lars
Leu Numismatik
www.leunumismatik.com

Offline archivum

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Re: Unknown AE35 Julia Domna Provincial Discussion
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2011, 02:41:33 pm »
There's a much smaller Caracalla issue from Carrhae in Mesopotamia with Tyche head and cornucopiae in this same arrangement; Carrhae's not as well indexed as many, so it's hard to search.
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

Offline Bamba123

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Re: Unknown AE35 Julia Domna Provincial Discussion
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2011, 10:38:13 am »
I came across a couple examples of the Carrhae, Mesopotamia

This on is 17.7mm,  3.8g

If all the world's a stage, I want to operate the trap door

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1844

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Unknown AE35 Julia Domna Provincial Discussion
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2011, 12:06:29 pm »
Dear Pscipio, Archivum, Bamba123, & Board,
 
Thank you all so much for your valuable input!  I really appreciate it.  It is hard researching these sort of coins alone.  I must say this one in particular has got me rather wrapped up in trying to identify it.  Every issue we can eliminate is still progress being made, and I think we can add the Carrhae coins to those that have been crossed out.  Here is another example:
       
http://www.s110120695.websitehome.co.uk/SNG/sng_reply2a_20110126.php?verb=SNGuk_1202_2488

The turreted bust of Tyche on these types is completely different from the bust depicted on the Domna provincial (which is more likely wearing a type of kalathos than a turret crown), as are the inscriptions, not to mention the different shape of the cornucopia.

Where does this leave us?  It is a bit funny, because I thought there were more female busts with cornucopias than what the evidence suggests now.  So far, Lindgren III 752, illustrated above, is the most similar from a design perspective.  Also from Aegeae, we find this interesting issue:

http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=124573

Similar kind of kalathos(?) as seen on the Domna provincial.  While this particular city is probably not the answer, a Cilician origin still looks promising, although I have gone down the wrong path before.


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan
         

Offline sculptor17

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Re: Unknown AE35 Julia Domna Provincial Discussion
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2011, 10:02:57 am »
Hi,
As the proud and puzzled owner of this coin, I appreciate the efforts being made to identify it.

I would like to point out that probably the artistically closest match to reverse type that i have seen is the bust of Artemis-tyche found in the Valerian AE's from Cilicia, Seleucia ad Calycadnum. This reverse type is always composed of two confronted busts, but the style bears a maddening similarity, maddenening in the sense that I have not found any further matches to this coin. But I am reliant on online resources and about 100 auction cataloques.

I really did not expect attributing this to be so elusive! I thought with this nice, interesting style, and such a large coin, it had to have been noticed before!

Regards,

Glenn Terry

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Unknown AE35 Julia Domna Provincial Discussion
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2023, 11:37:57 pm »
Dear Glenn and Board,

At final last, we have a match!  Below is the dealer's description, which suggests that the type is indeed unpublished (to which I can say nothing is in SNG Tahberer 1.2 either):

CILICIA. Aegeae. Julia Domna (Augusta, 193-217). Ae.

Obv: IOVΛIAN ΔOMNAN CЄB.
Draped bust of Julia Domna right.
Rev: [...]AIΓЄAIΩN ЄN[...].
Draped female bust wearing stephane; cornucopia to right.

SNG BN -; SNG Levante -; SNG Copenhagen -; SNG von Aulock -; BMC -.

Rare

Condition: Very fine.

Weight: 25.53 g.
Diameter: 34 mm.

************************
Never give up!


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan

 

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