Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure  (Read 3260 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« on: April 23, 2012, 05:09:07 pm »
I was browsing my picture viewing statistics just now and was surprised to find that, excepting certain obvious special coins such as the gold EID MAR aureus, the following, common, and obviously double struck coin, is the most popular 'ordinary' coin in my collection.



This really surprised me. I've much nicer coins (I think) that are at least not double struck. Is this a nice coin? I'm not sure. Skipping over a few high-value pieces such as EF Julius Caesar denarii, the next most popular 'ordinary' coin was this incuse-legend victoriatus from Spain. Yes this is nice, but a very flat strike - were it an LRB it wouldn't survive an early cull due to its poor strike.



Next in line were a few Roman didrachms - always popular - and then this common Julius Caesar denarius which really could do with some toning:



Then my "dream of Sulla" plated thingie:



Fifth in the list of ordinary but populars was seized by this nonentity of a common denarius but happening to have Marius (possibly) in the chariot:



Why do people choose to view these coins and not others from a selection of thousands? They are nice, but I have nicer coins I think.

One of the all time most popular is this silver bar dating to Republican times and weighing about 50 denarii (200 grams)



Not even a coin and it still attracts attention  :)   I really can't figure what makes coins popular or desirable. All these top-five coins have one or other obvious defect yet they all rank ahead of much greater, nicer, rarer and more important pieces. I dunno.

4to2CentBCphilia

  • Guest
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2012, 06:05:33 pm »
Andrew

Is that gold eid mar yours?? If so............I bow on bended knee.........wow.

After a quick browse, I actually find your medal commemorating the de Medici assasination very interesting. Wherever did you get it?

Also, yes, your JC denarius could use some toning..................would you like a few ideas on how to accelerate the process?   :evil:

Finally, beauty is in the eye of the beholder..............therefore you can't explain the attraction to some coins and not others. For instance, I love my Picasso-esque Eastern European Imitative Thasos Tet............I have yet to see another like it............but I am the only one who loves it (well, me and cicerokid). I see beauty in it's primitve, deconstructed style while others see a crude and ugly coin. To each his own I guess.





BR

Mark

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2012, 10:44:17 pm »
Andrew

Is that gold eid mar yours?? If so............I bow on bended knee.........wow.

Mark

Absolutely not. It is the long-term-loan example in the British Museum. Previously rejected by Crawford based on his view of a cast in the ANS many years ago, but now accepted by all as genuine:



I'm not sure I would like to have owned it and I slightly take offence at the idea that I might! It's not the sort of coin that gets me up in the morning. It's a dilettante's rather than an expert's coin. A flashy Ferrari, whose consumption would take the place of dozens of serious pieces. I'm more the sort of coin collector who relishes a low-production obscure variety of a Ford Escort produced only for the Singapore market in the 1970s but now rare as hens teeth due to the propensity of those islanders to scrap their cars before they first need washing. Actually the most interesting thing about this coin is its ancient piercing. It was probably rare and desirable even in ancient times and one could imagine a secret Republican supporter wearing it under his toga even as he chatted with Augustus.

This was my EID MAR (for regrettable reasons no longer in my collection, but there you go). A better fit with my collection I think. Long ago, a numismatist whom I respected insulted my taste in coins for having acquired this, considering it the ugliest piece he'd ever seen. Sometime after, I disposed of it. Today I'd take his insult as a compliment. EID MAR's are common and therefore should not consume too much of a collector's budget, but this is the absolutely poorest example in existence so at least has a touch of rarity about it (and didn't consume much budget).



After a quick browse, I actually find your medal commemorating the de Medici assasination very interesting. Wherever did you get it?

This is my current VIII.ID.IAN, which is a perfectly satisfactory slot replacement for the gold aureus. Now this is my sort of piece. Rare, historically amazing, not well known, obscure, and picked up at a bourse in York last year (some other list members were with me at the time so will have seen it live):



Renaissance Medal. 1537AD. 23.6grams. Venetian school attributed to Gavino. Type copies Crawford 508/3  Obverse: hd Lorenzino de Medici r, LAVRENTIVS MEDICES. Commemorates Assassination of Alessandro de Medici in 1537 by the killer's cousin Lorenzino Reverse: cap of liberty between two daggers, VIII.ID.IAN below, i.e. 6th January or ante diem VIII Id. Ian. Very Rare.

Cessi 53. Toderi Vannel Medaglie 743. Attwood 891. Calvera 19 (not this copy). Original 16th century copy, cast in bronze bell metal.

On January 6, 1537 Lorenzino de Medici, assassinated his cousin, Duke Alessandro de 'Medici. He fled first to Turkey, then France and finally to Venice, where he was murdered by hired assassins of Cosimo I in 1548. The reverse is inspired by the famous denarius of Brutus, and just as with Brutus the type wishes to sing the praises of a tyrranicide.

Lorenzino de Medici was a writer, born in Florence, Italy, the son of Pierfrancesco II de Medici and Maria Soderini. He was educated at Camerino together with Cosimo and Alessandro de Medici. He and the latter were later involved in several public scandals involving their escapades. In 1526 Lorenzino was brought with Cosimo to Venice to escape the Landsknechts falling on Florence, and was also saved from the expulsion of the Medici from that city following the Sack of Rome which crushed the power of the most powerful member of the family, Pope Clement VII. After a period in Veneto, Bologna and Rome (where he gained the nickname Lorenzaccio, "Bad Lorenzo", for his habit of decapitating statues), he returned to his native city in 1530, after the end of the Imperial siege which installed Alessandro as duke.

Probably prompted by Filippo Strozzi, Lorenzino and the killer Scoronconcolo murdered duke Alessandro on January 5, 1537. Lorenzino entrapped Alessandro through the ruse of a promised arranged sexual encounter with Lorenzino's sister Laudomia, a beautiful widow. After this, he fled to Bologna, and from there to Turkey, France, and then Venice. He wrote a public defense of his actions (the Apologia), claiming that, as an ideal heir of Marcus Junius Brutus, dedication to human liberty had forced him to kill Alessandro. Cosimo I de' Medici became Duke of Florence, and condemned Lorenzino to death. An assassin in Cosimo's pay killed Lorenzino in 1548 in front of his lover's house at Campo San Polo, Venice.

Herbert Cahn noted in a fundamental article on the subject that the EID MAR denarius type has been prized by collectors and scholars since the Renaissance, being copied for this medal commemorating the murder of Alessandro de Medici in 1537 – see Bargello 489, but it was also celebrated in ancient times as well. Dio Cassius mentioned it in the 3rd century, and its reverse was copied on a denarius issued during the Civil Wars of 68-69 (RIC 24-25).

Of note also to the history of numismatics is that the date of this medal goes right back to the founding of modern numismatics, in fact predating the finding of the Consular Fasti on the Capitoline hill in 1545, which sparked the writing of many serious numismatic books such as that by Fulvius Orsini, because the dating of the Republican moneyers could for the first time be assigned with some precision. Thus the use of the Brutus EID MAR, prior to such publications, is quite extraordinary and does show just how famous a coin it has been through history.

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2012, 10:52:14 pm »
Finally, beauty is in the eye of the beholder..............therefore you can't explain the attraction to some coins and not others. For instance, I love my Picasso-esque Eastern European Imitative Thasos Tet............I have yet to see another like it............but I am the only one who loves it (well, me and cicerokid). I see beauty in it's primitve, deconstructed style while others see a crude and ugly coin. To each his own I guess.

The strange thing about my original post is that I'm not so amazed by own taste - there's no accounting for individual weirdness - but rather at the collective taste of the masses who have been viewing my coins. I have many nice coins, but were I asked to choose my nicest 50 or 100 examples I'm not sure any of those coins would have merited it. Yet they are my most popular six coins (if you exclude coins that people are led to by googling such as Caesar portrait denarii). I was actually considering getting rid of at least three of those six and looking for nicer examples (the double-struck Furia, the plated Dream of Sulla, and the worn Fundania). But I guess the vote is that they stay.

Lloyd Taylor

  • Guest
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2012, 11:36:10 pm »
Now how many of those silver bars weigh 50 denarii does one see? Unusual and infrequently encountered? Yes - and I was immediately drawn to it as I suspect would most people viewing your collection.  So its very unusual and previously unencountered (for most) identity perhaps explains the high viewing count - inquiring minds are attracted to it. Similarly I suspect for the " dream of Sulla plated thingie".

Then the polar opposite may occur e.g. I want to compare my example of a commonly encountered and collected Julius Caesar denarius to yours, so I zoom in for a closer view. Frequently found and widely available examples may well attract a lot of views as people compare theirs to yours... which is human nature.

I guess I am less inclined to consider the viewing count on a coin as a measure of popularity in the true sense of the word, rather than a reflection of inquisitive and comparative human nature.  Ask for a vote on the most popular coin and I bet you get a different answer to the viewing count.

That said, I think all are pretty nice, interesting examples of coins.

Offline David Atherton

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4711
  • The meaning of life can be found in a coin.
    • Flavian Fanatic Blog
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2012, 01:13:28 am »
Just out of curiosity, is there a way to tell which coins are currently part of your collection?

Also, how long ago did you part with you EID MAR!?

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2012, 08:51:08 am »
Just out of curiosity, is there a way to tell which coins are currently part of your collection?

Also, how long ago did you part with you EID MAR!?

You can assume all coins are mine unless otherwise specified in the accompanying text. The text below the coin specifies if it came from somewhere else. "Private Collection" or "reproduced from Bahrfeldt, 1898" or "with kind permission Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris", would be typical clues. Actually, 90% plus of the non-high-value (sub $5000, i.e. excluding aurei, aes signatum etc) coins ARE part of my collection.

Aside from that, photographic uniformity (more an art than a science) is a visual hint. Any with a grey background visible (even a little fraction behind an edge crack) are certainly mine.

As a matter of policy, of the remaining 10% (plus the mega-valuables), NONE of the pictures are available elsewhere on the internet. I see no point in reproducing other peoples photos. So there are NO acsearch/cng/forum database pictures reproduced on my site. ALL pictures are either my own photos of coins that I have handled, or my own photos of very old out-of-copyright book-plates. So all the museum examples were photographed by me. The gold EID MAR may be the sole exception to this rule, because it is a BM photo, but the British Museum asked me to host and disseminate the photo, so from that perspective it's "my" photo after a fashion,

2. 1999.

Does anyone like the Ford Escort?

4to2CentBCphilia

  • Guest
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2012, 09:53:53 am »
Andrew

Is that gold eid mar yours?? If so............I bow on bended knee.........wow.

Mark

Absolutely not. It is the long-term-loan example in the British Museum. Previously rejected by Crawford based on his view of a cast in the ANS many years ago, but now accepted by all as genuine:



I'm not sure I would like to have owned it and I slightly take offence at the idea that I might! It's not the sort of coin that gets me up in the morning. It's a dilettante's rather than an expert's coin.

Well, the detail that it was a long term loan was obvious.................but by whom was not, since that detail is buried 5 paragraphs down.

As for taking offence to the thought that it might be yours................well that is completely silly...........or worse snobbish.  :-\

Too many of the latter in this hobby..............let's not increase that number.  :police:

BR

Mark


Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2012, 10:03:41 am »
Well, the detail that it was a long term loan was obvious.................but by whom was not, since that detail is buried 5 paragraphs down.

As for taking offence to the thought that it might be yours................well that is completely silly...........or worse snobbish.  :-\

Too many of the latter in this hobby..............let's not increase that number.  :police:

BR

Mark

Well, very badly / awkwardly put by me for which I apologise.

I am generally known to those on this board as a collector of obscure varieties of worn copper coins, and when I show a coin here, as often as not it is a coin that only its mother could love (the Ford Escort analogy), often badly damaged, incredibly rare, and costing me perhaps $100. I was trying to express that such a collector as I, who spends countless hours browsing worn bronzes, probably doesn't put $500,000 on a unique EID MAR gold aureus. I guess it was snobbish to assume that a collector of half-million-dollar coins doesn't also browse junk boxes which is what I was implying (I think reverse-snobbery is the term).

So, sorry all. It was half-formed thought badly expressed.

Offline *Alex

  • Tribunus Plebis 2022
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2144
  • Etiam Iovis omnibus placere non possunt.
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2012, 12:24:00 pm »
Does anyone like the Ford Escort?

No. But I did have a Ford Anglia back in the sixties.  ;D

Alex.

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2012, 12:51:29 pm »
Does anyone like the Ford Escort?

No. But I did have a Ford Anglia back in the sixties.  ;D

Alex.


Wow! My first car was also a green Ford Anglia. A very old green Ford Anglia in the 1980s. It is the only car I ever owned that I really liked and respected (well perhaps other than a 12 year old Range Rover automatic I drove when in Oman about twenty years ago and that had a suspension of a boat in perpetual bad weather. It's difficult to figure the point of a 4WD automatic - the essence of being able to stay in control on soft desert sand or when driving through rivers doesn't work if the car shifts gear without permission the instant a wheel loses some traction. Still we had a lot of parties and ... other fun ... in that cavernous and luxurious range rover interior).

Offline *Alex

  • Tribunus Plebis 2022
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2144
  • Etiam Iovis omnibus placere non possunt.
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2012, 01:22:18 pm »
My Anglia (same colour as the one pictured) suffered terminal failure in a collision with a lorry in 1969. I replaced it with a Ford Cortina, unfortunately I also had to replace my broken teeth at the same time  :-\ . With one exception all my cars since the early 1990's have been automatics - a sure sign I am getting old.  ;D

Alex.

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2012, 01:50:11 pm »
I also had to replace my broken teeth at the same time
  ;D

It seems that indeed you've replaced the teeth  !  :)

Offline Potator II

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1637
  • Error communis facit jus
    • Monnaies de la Dombes
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2012, 05:00:39 pm »
Andrew,

To go back to the OP, things are strange, and even more what people like or want to see.
As a matter of comparison with your collecting field, I can just look at what the most popular are in my Dombes (feudal french) gallery as it's my focused collecting theme, where I would like to build a comprehensive series.

That said, what do we see ?

 https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=topn&cat=-2076

The most popular are the commonest. Why ?
The first answer would be because people want to see what they already know.
90 people have looked at a Gaston denier tournois of which countless examples are known, which is fair for such a common and unattractive coin, even though it's well preserved
But on the other hand, only 81 (to date) have seen the Jean II franc à cheval of which only seven or eight examples are known in the world, where I would have imagined millions of visitors fighting each other to admire such an important coin : it's the first coin on the french area featuring a realistic portrait of the ruler since the end of the roman empire. And it is gold !! (well I know Dombes coinage is not very well known more than ten mile away from Lyon, but even french people are lurking around on Forvm...)

Best
JC

Offline David Atherton

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4711
  • The meaning of life can be found in a coin.
    • Flavian Fanatic Blog
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2012, 05:08:38 am »
You can assume all coins are mine unless otherwise specified in the accompanying text. The text below the coin specifies if it came from somewhere else. "Private Collection" or "reproduced from Bahrfeldt, 1898" or "with kind permission Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris", would be typical clues. Actually, 90% plus of the non-high-value (sub $5000, i.e. excluding aurei, aes signatum etc) coins ARE part of my collection.

Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't come across (or seen) an entry with a note indicating a separate provenance or some such. An indication I suppose of just how large your collection is.

Offline Rupert

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1993
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2012, 10:41:33 am »
...
Does anyone like the Ford Escort?

That's cool. I mean it was dull in the 70's or 80's, but oldtimers are made in the shredder - when 99% of a type have gone, the remaining one percent (or maybe closer to a quarter percent for this type) are scarce reminders of a time past, time of my childhood when you saw these on every corner. And at an oldtimer meeting, there will always be many a 50's or 60's Mercedes (or Cadillacs, in the US), but how many original 70's Escorts will you see? I'm always fond of those low-class oldtimers of which a very low percentage is being preserved.
Is this yours too? ;)

Rupert

PS: Enclosed below is a photo of my oldtimer (a common one BTW because comparatively many people had enough space to keep it somewhere).
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2012, 05:50:44 am »
what do we see ?

 https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=topn&cat=-2076

The most popular are the commonest. Why ?
The first answer would be because people want to see what they already know.
JC

Yes. They want to see what they already know. Or what is famous (EID MAR, Aes Signatum, Caesar portraits). Or what looks very curious (50 denarius silver bar, flip-over-double-strikes). That would correlate exactly with my stats. Regular rarities pass by without generally being noticed.

Offline Diederik

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2918
  • carpe diem, vita brevis est!
Re: Is this a nice coin? I am not sure
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2012, 12:09:12 pm »
Quote
Enclosed below is a photo of my oldtimer
IS-58 would not be the year in which you Isetta was built?  Wonderful and very rare car, although admitted most people would prefer having a BMW 502!

Andrew,
I think all your coins have their own intrinsic AND sentimental value. The big difference between hand- and machine struck coins is the handiwork which created them. Modern coins are made once and the reproduced - hence they lack individual character.
It is a fact that people recognize the 'famous' coins and therefore want to posses one. The Athens Tet is a well-known example.


Frans

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity