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Author Topic: Late Rhodian dies  (Read 5924 times)

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Offline rover1.3

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Late Rhodian dies
« on: August 31, 2010, 07:54:18 am »
I have once read (i don't remember where) that on the late issues (2nd century B.C) of Rhodian silver drachms and hemidrachms
bearing an incuse square on reverse (actually an anachronism also used on the silver coinage of the Lycian League a little bit latter), the free, empty space outside the incuse square was also part of the die.
Can this theory explain coins like these below? The last letters of the magistrate's name often to be engraved outside the incuse square.
(these 2 coins are under ΘΡΑΣΥΜΕΝΗΣ and ΑΝΤΑΙΟΣ magistrates)

Interesting and extraordinary, isn't it?

But the usage of a design (rose here, Apollo's lyre on Lycian coins) inside an incuse square so late, on 2nd century b.c. , isn't another interesting and extraordinary thing? This makes me think that the reasons for retaining the incuse square was cosmetic also, instead of practicals only.

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2010, 09:05:17 am »
Here is another one under ΑΝΤΑΙΟΣ magistrate. This time, the engraver was more accurate (he actually used in a more clever way the available space) and he managed to engrave the whole name correctly inside the square.
I have seen other examples with only ΑΝΤΑΙΟ. I guess, that his time he chose NOT to engrave the last "Σ" outside the flan, but leave the name as ΑΝΤΑΙΟ, which is actually wrong.
Other examples, have ΑΝΤΑΙΣ. He didn't engrave the "Ο", because he knew that the space will not be enough to engrave the "Σ", so he decided to leave it as ΑΝΤΑΙΣ. (i guess because he thought that the "Σ" is more important because is the last letter of the name, who knows?)

The most fascinating to me, is the first one with the letter "Σ" outside the incuse square. And this, because it is maybe a prove that the empty space outside the square was actually part of the die.
On these series, on magistrate's names with many letters, this paradox is quite common. There was not enough space for all the letters to be properly engraved.

I am wondering, why they didn't engrave the incuse squares on a bigger scale? This could help them to find some space and be able to correctly engrave the names inside the squares.


Offline rover1.3

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2010, 11:11:57 am »
This one, with ΑΝΤΑΙΣ instead of ΑΝΤΑΙΟΣ.

One can easily imagine that the engravers didn't knew to speak and write properly the language because they were maybe of foreign origin.
But under careful observation on many examples i think that those spelling problems was results of the insufficient space inside square.

The main reason i wrote this thread is to share any thoughts and comments on "Why an incuse square down on 2nd century b.c?"
Tradition reasons only?

Offline Randygeki(h2)

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2010, 01:25:46 pm »
Very interesting! I could only echo your questions, but it does kinda seem to be for tradition.

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2010, 01:38:56 pm »
I mean, in case the empty space outside the square was indeed part of the die (letters outside the square show that this was true) , then the square must have been only for cosmetic reasons. Unlike the archaic and classical incuse squares that were actualy results of the punch.

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2010, 02:39:52 pm »
I mean,in case the empty space outside the square was indeed part of the die(letters outside the square show that this was true),then the square must have been only for cosmetic reasons.Unlike the archaic and classical incuse squares that were actualy results of the punch.

Of course the 'incuse square' is actually a raised square area of the die, within which the rose and other symbols are inscribed, but we clearly see that the raised square part of the die was not the whole 'business end' of the die, but apparently lay within a larger, perhaps circular, die surface.  Some of the die carvers could neatly fit lettering within the square, and some could not and ran over the edge onto the remaining area of the die surface.  Looks like some of the carvers had all the lettering skill of a typical yard sale sign maker :)  It is interesting that, running out of room for the letters, the carver didn't change their size or curve them around the border but rather kept the size and direction uniform and ran over the edge of the square into 'empty space' - because it was there. 

Another alternative is that the lettered name existed separately on a 'raised letter' punch that was used to stamp the name into the raised square.  If such a punch was made and happened to be just a shade wider than the allowed width of the square we'd see a similar result.  In that case we should see, perhaps under magnification, evidence of part of the 'overrun' letter's encounter with the edge of the square area that might look different if an engraver wrote over the edge 'by hand'.

PtolemAE

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2010, 02:56:37 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on August 31, 2010, 02:39:52 pm
Another alternative is that the lettered name existed separately on a 'raised letter' punch that was used to stamp the name into the raised square.  If such a punch was made and happened to be just a shade wider than the allowed width of the square we'd see a similar result.  In that case we should see, perhaps under magnification, evidence of part of the 'overrun' letter's encounter with the edge of the square area that might look different if an engraver wrote over the edge 'by hand'.

PtolemAE

Interesting thought. Needs further "investigation". Thank you.
Any ideas on why an incuse square on such a late era?
I have never see any Lycian League examples showing the same "outside of the incuse square" letters, but i think these Rhodian and
Lycian coins are associated in some ways, fabric is similar on these types, so maybe there are also Lycian coins showing this.

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2010, 04:10:36 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on August 31, 2010, 02:39:52 pm
Another alternative is that the lettered name existed separately on a 'raised letter' punch that was used to stamp the name into the raised square.  If such a punch was made and happened to be just a shade wider than the allowed width of the square we'd see a similar result.  In that case we should see, perhaps under magnification, evidence of part of the 'overrun' letter's encounter with the edge of the square area that might look different if an engraver wrote over the edge 'by hand'.

PtolemAE

Interesting thought.Needs further "investigation".Thank you.
Any ideas on why an incuse square on such a late era?
...

maybe it's just easier to carve up a raised square than to, say, make a round dotted border at the edge of a circular die.  the square makes for a nice working area where it's easy to work.  might also make for easier striking where more of the force is concentrated on the small raised area.  i suppose it's anyone's guess.  maybe just a tradition.

PtolemAE


Offline Dino

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2010, 08:53:24 am »
Very interesting thread.  I hadn't seen Rhodes coins with these "overruns" before.  I do remember someone posting an Athens tet with the olive leaves outside the square, but that one was a pretty obvious fake.

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2010, 09:05:15 am »
I hadn't seen Rhodes coins with these "overruns" before. 

They are pretty common.

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2010, 08:16:00 am »
This series is often called as "plinthophoric".Runs from c.188 to 84 b.c.
After a quick search on the archive of CNG, i have noticed that plenty of coins showing these "overruns" on reverse are
coins that placed by Jenkins  on "plinthophoric group D" on his work about plinthophoric coinage,
dating his group 125-88 b.c.This group is showing many "incomplete"names also.

Jenkins dating his groups as

Group A=188-170 b.c.
Group B=170-150 b.c.
Group C=150-125 b.c
Group D=125-88 b.c
Group E=88-84 b.c


Unfortunately i don't have the book to check if Jenkins says something about this phenomenon.
Anyone having the book, feel free to correct me if i have made any mistakes but also to give further information.

Here i give some examples i found on CNG's archive from groups B+D showing these "overruns", as well us some coins also from these 2 groups+some group E coins, showing the magistrate names not complete inside the incuse square, but also not using the "overrun" method.




GROUP B (COINS USING OVERRUNS)

 ΘΡΑΣΥΜΕΝΗΣ
 ΑΘΑΝΟΔΩΡΟΣ


GROUP B (COINS WITH THE MAGISTRATE'S NAME INCOMPLETE)

 ΘΡΑΣΥΜΕΝ


Group D (COINS USING OVERRUNS)

 ΔΙΟΓΝΗΤΟΣ+ΔΙΟΓΝΗΤΟΥ(form of name in genetive)
 ΜΕΛΑΝΤΑΣ
 ΑΝΤΑΙΟΣ
 ΤΙΜΟΚΡΑΤΗΣ


Group D (COINS WITH THE MAGISTRATE'S NAME INCOMPLETE)

 ΤΙΜΟΚΡΑΤ(ΗΣ)
 ΤΙΜΑΣΙΠ(ΟΣ)
 ΜΕΛΑΝΤΑ(Σ)
 ΜΕΛΑΝ(ΤΑΣ)
 ΓΟΡΓΙΑ(Σ)
 ΑΝΤΑΙΣ

GROUP E (COINS WITH THE MAGISTRATE'S NAME INCOMPLETE)

 ΚΑΛΛΙΞΕΙΝ(ΟΣ)
 ΚΑΛΛΙΞΕΙ(ΝΟΣ)


I wasn't able to find even a single specimen showing these anomalies from groups A+C, but as i said before, i have searched only on the CNG archive.
Seems that these 2 (A+D) groups are the most "problematic" ones, but also the last E is showing some of these anomalies.

On group E, i found many specimens under the name ΜΑΗΣ.None of them had any "problems", probably because the name ΜΑΗΣ is short enough, and even the most unskilled engraver was able to correctly manage the available space and engrave it inside the square. (exactly the opposite with ΚΑΛΛΙΞΕΙΝΟΣ. A lengthy name, often found incomplete).

This gives strength to the opinion that these overruns was results of the insufficient space inside the square, and not
because of the foreign origin of some of the engravers.
 
So, why they choose to engrave their coins using an incuse square? Didn't see that this was a "problematic" method?
And why they didn't design their squares on a bigger scale to earn some extra free space?




Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2010, 02:49:57 pm »
The engraving actually took place on a *raised* square, not an incuse square on the die.  Seems like a great method for 'containing' the design elements except if ham-handed letterers can't proportion things correctly - or if, as seems possible, the lettered name was on a punch that was already too wide for the square 'mesa'.  I suppose some die comparisons could help determine which method was used to produce the lettered line at the top.

PtolemAE

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2010, 03:55:19 pm »
If we accept the 'raised letter' punch that was used to stamp the name into the raised square', which at first sight looks plausible,
then how can we explain the "incomplete" lettering?
Why to have incomplete names? With the raised letters, the whole, correct name should be stamped.

See below. ΜΕΛΑΝΤΑ instead of ΜΕΛΑΝΤΑΣ. No overrun. Just a letter missing.

Offline Enodia

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2010, 03:38:21 am »
perhaps all of the over-run inscriptions were actually like the above coin, that is with letters missing. if that were the case then the over-run letters could have been corrections added manually after the fact using the only space available.
this would not be unlike modern coins with the mintmark punched into the finished die afterwards.

~ Peter

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2010, 04:02:39 am »
perhaps all of the over-run inscriptions were actually like the above coin, that is with letters missing. if that were the case then the over-run letters could have been corrections added manually after the fact using the only space available.
this would not be unlike modern coins with the mintmark punched into the finished die afterwards.

~ Peter

So, why they choose to engrave their coins using an incuse (raised) square? Wasn't able to realize that this was a "problematic" method?
And why they didn't design their squares on a bigger scale to earn some extra free space minimizing those space problems?

The idea of designing the die leaving an empty space for the magistrates name to be punched afterwards?.. We guess that the name was result of a second, separate punch? Or the name was stamped during the first punch?
Mysterious.. very fascinating.

Here is a reverse of a coin seems to have been slightly double strike. We can see the traces of the double strike not only on the magistrate name, but on "P-O" letters, on rose, on tendril.
The uniformity of the traces -results of the double strike- makes me believe that the name was part of the die, not separate.




Offline Dino

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2010, 05:01:04 am »
if we accept the 'raised letter' punch that was used to stamp the name into the raised square',which at first sight looks plausible,
then how can we explain the "incomplete" lettering?
Why to have incomplete names?With the raised letters,the whole,correct name should be stamped.

See below.ΜΕΛΑΝΤΑ instead of ΜΕΛΑΝΤΑΣ. No overrun.Just a letter missing.

Not necessarily.  Remember that the square the engraver is using is raised, so that it is higher than the surrounding die.  If the engraver used a raised letter punch to add the magistrate's name to the reverse and the punch is too big, and the raised center square is high enough, then you should see exactly that, the name ending at the edge of the square because the die is two different levels in height.  For an "overrun", the engraver would then have to separately add the missing letters.



Here is a reverse of a coin seems to have been slightly double strike. We can see the traces of the double strike not only on the magistrate name,but on "P-O" letters,on rose,on tendril.
The uniformity of the traces -results of the double strike- show me that the name was part of the die,not separate.
If the magistrate's name was punched into the die and then the die was used to strike the coin and there was a double-strike, you would still see exactly what we see in your picture.

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2010, 05:03:55 am »
Dino,you also believe the name was on a separate punch?
I am not saying i don't accept this, on the contrary, i just want to understand it correctly.

It is not about Rhodes coins only, it is about numismatics i think.

Offline Dino

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2010, 05:08:32 am »
No.  I'd have to look at a lot more of these to reach a conclusion.  I'm just saying that physically,  it is plausible.

As to why they were still using an incuse square, the answer could be as simple as it was a design element and they liked the way it looked.  That's what I tend to believe.  If it was for some other reason, you'd probably see it on larger silver and on bronzes as well.

Offline Dino

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2010, 05:26:23 am »
I'd have to look at at lot more, but looking at my example of this type of coin, I tend to lean against the raised letter punch theory.  Look at a blow up of the relevant section of the coin below.  You would think that if a raised letter punch was used for the whole name that they would be the same height.  Look how high the  :Greek_Iota: is on the magistrate's name.  If they were individual letter punches then the two  :Greek_Pi_2:'s would look the same.  They do not.

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2010, 05:34:45 am »
 If they were individual letter punches then the two  :Greek_Pi_2:'s would look the same.  They do not.

Very good example. Thank you.

Offline Enodia

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2010, 05:36:12 am »
Quote from: rover
The idea of designing the die leaving an empty space for the magistrates name to be punched afterwards?..,We guess that the name was result of a second,separate punch?Or the name was stamped while the first punch,while coin's birth?
Mysterious.. very fascinating.

i'm not convinced the space was intentionally left vacant for the magistrate's name to be added later. i believe the name was included on the original die, but bungled. the engraver used all the space but misspelled the name, and the error was later corrected by a single letter punch which necessarily was placed outside of the incuse. the final letter may be slightly out of line with the rest of the name, which would add credence to this theory.
or not.
it is though, as you say, fascinating.

Quote from: Dino
As to why they were still using an incuse square, the answer could be as simple as it was a design element and they liked the way it looked.  That's what I tend to believe.  If it was for some other reason, you'd probably see it on larger silver and on bronzes as well.

this same design feature was used on the coins of nearby Stratonikeia during this same period too, so i guess we should look for a similar phenomenon there. there it was used on silver and bronze coins, but only the smaller ones. in any case it could lead one to suspect fashion as the reason for this incuse design. i'm not sure i buy that entirely, but it is possible. other coin designs have proven to be just this serendipitous.

~ Peter

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2010, 05:38:48 am »

If the magistrate's name was punched into the die and then the die was used to strike the coin and there was a double-strike, you would still see exactly what we see in your picture.

I may disagree a little bit here. Looking at this reverse carefully, what makes you think that the name was separate?
The uniformity of the traces of the double strike on name, tendril, P-O, isn't a good sign that the name was part of the die and not separate?

Offline Enodia

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2010, 05:43:05 am »
i think Dino is saying that the magistrate's name was added after the initial engraving, but (obviously) before the strike. in this case the letters would still be doubled.

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2010, 05:44:57 am »
the final letter may be slightly out of line with the rest of the name, which would add credence to this theory.
or not.
~ Peter

Correct.Have to check this.


Offline rover1.3

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Re: Late Rhodian dies
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2010, 05:52:48 am »
i think Dino is saying that the magistrate's name was added after the initial engraving, but (obviously) before the strike. in this case the letters would still be doubled.
Thank you Peter.
If Dino is saying this, yes, i accept it as very plausible. Sorry friends, sometimes i can't get it immediately because of my skills
on the foreign language.

 

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