New category of struck fakes

[Andrew McCabe]

All below from the same seller, and listed as probable reproductions, so I'm not proposing an NFSL. One copy is also listed in a January NYINC auction (not for long I suspect):

[areich]

Whatever they did differently with the second coin, it's a big difference. The original fakes sold on Ebay stick out like a sore thumb but this one looks ok, if you're not familiar with the style of the original.

[Rupert]

Could the second coin, or a die-identical specimen, be the host coin for the first?

Rupert

[carthago]

Wow.  Some of those are scary Andrew.  Thanks for sharing them.

[Andrew McCabe]

Could the second coin, or a die-identical specimen, be the host coin for the first?

Rupert

No - the type is a fantasy, it's not a real coin type. Apart from the style and fabric (which is totally wrong for the issue), the "twin Apollos" but with "stars of the Dioscuri" above their head is a plainly fantasy type. Apollo can't be twin and can't have stars above head, and the Dioscuri are never shown without pileus and with Apollo's hair. It's clearly impossible.

[carthago]

No - the type is a fantasy, it's not a real coin type. Apart from the style and fabric (which is totally wrong for the issue), the "twin Apollos" but with "stars of the Dioscuri" above their head is a plainly fantasy type. Apollo can't be twin and can't have stars above head, and the Dioscuri are never shown without pileus and with Apollo's hair. It's clearly impossible.

I've never really been attracted to the type enough to pay attention to it, but researching it on coinarchives just now there are definately design choices that don't exist, most notably at first is the hair.  At first glance, and even second second glance imo, it's a pretty convincing coin until you look at reference pieces.

The coin has been withdrawn fwiw.  Ah, the intrigue of it all!

[areich]

It'll be fun, they have a wide range of dies in this workshop from all kinds of area and eras. With these less obvious flans we will probably see a few of these outside of Ebay in the near future.

[Joe Sermarini]

I think they are fairly obviously the wrong style. 

[areich]

Yes, but this coin fooled a big auction house and I think there will be a lot of smaller auction houses to offer the occasional coin if the forgers manage to strike a significant number of their coins onto these much improved flans. The old ones are obviously modern in style but what most gave them away was the surfaces, the cracks etc. They wouldn't fool anyone for even a split second and this coin fooled at least one professional numismatist for several minutes or more. I'm NOT saying the sky is falling.

[glebe]

For similar coins from all periods, presumably from the same source, check out Mangizite-2008 on Ebay at just about any time. I include a typical offering below - note the "I am no no numismatist, therefore I give no guarantee...."

Ross G.

[glebe]

And here's another one that has been around for a while.
Notice though that these types aren't fooling anybody (on Ebay anyway), and on reflection, I'm assuming that they were originally produced as tourist souvenirs.

Ross G.

[Joe Sermarini]

Fake coin reports please.

[Nebukadnezar]

Better picture showing the  "Apparently (a) unique and unpublished type."
What is exactly wrong with the fabric? (Is it a machine pressed fake?)
With best regards

[Andrew McCabe]

Better picture showing the  "Apparently (a) unique and unpublished type."
What is exactly wrong with the fabric? (Is it a machine pressed fake?)
With best regards

The fabric is perhaps ok for some ancient coin types, but not for this series (RRC 463, Cordia) which were struck on dumpy thick flans that were clearly concave on the reverse. Genuine coins would thus not have flat surfaces, and would not have edge cracks that look like these fakes. There are many stylistic problems, of which one is obvious - the interface between the jugate heads on the forgeries is a channel or dip, with the behind-head fading out; on genuine coins this does not happen and the front-head builds straight on top of the behind-head. The lettering is also wrong; on genuine coins the words MN.CORDIVS do not run in parallel with the dotted edge but are a more vertical, gentle curve. Note also how Venus leans forward on the genuine coins, and the same forward-leaning Venus type is seen on all the coins of Julius Caesar, so it was very deliberate. And cupid should be attached to Venus, not leaping from her back. It's totally wrong, and many specific stylistic points apply to other coin types of this era, for example how the lettering is laid out.

I said, "style and fabric are totally wrong for the issue", and these were some of the points I noticed. To recognise these points, it's probably necessary to know genuine coins of the issue or period. I show a couple of such genuine coins below. I wouldn't expect an auction house staff member to have these points by memory in his head, but I'd expect someone, coming across such an unusual piece, to go look at some genuine coins in order to check for stylistic similarities and differences. Then the combination of impossible type with wrong style and fabric should raise a lot of red flags.

[carthago]

The style choice of the hair on the foreground portrait is even more telling imo.  Many of the originals have distinct caps, not a bare head with curly locks like Apollo.

Also, the cupid on the shoulder of looks more like a midget paper hanger than a cherub.

[Andrew McCabe]

The style choice of the hair on the foreground portrait is even more telling imo.  Many of the originals have distinct caps, not a bare head with curly locks like Apollo.

Yes - that was my starting point: the design is wrong. Not "many" of the originals but, all:

No - the type is a fantasy, it's not a real coin type. Apart from the style and fabric (which is totally wrong for the issue), the "twin Apollos" but with "stars of the Dioscuri" above their head is a plainly fantasy type. Apollo can't be twin and can't have stars above head, and the Dioscuri are never shown without pileus and with Apollo's hair. It's clearly impossible.

Matters of style and fabric are second-degree.