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Author Topic: My Taras collection  (Read 52032 times)

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Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2015, 02:30:26 pm »
thanks Nick!
(and wow, quick reply!  :o  )

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #76 on: January 07, 2015, 03:11:14 pm »
Wow, that's a lovely coin Peter!! Congratulations!  8)

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #77 on: February 04, 2015, 04:07:30 am »
thanks Nico.   :)  

today's addition is a little bigger, and from the infamous-sounding SGF Group. it's a Period V didrachm with a right-facing dolphin, the first in my collection! this coin is also unusual in that it depicts a martial scene on both sides.
thanks for looking!

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-117773


Quote
Hard to say. If so, but I could be wrong, dies should have the same orientation for many specimens.
That is a very interesting matter, the technique of minting for smallest ar fractionals. Does anyone have suggestions or readings to recommend?


i'd like to reiterate Taras' question, if anybody knows.
thank you.

~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Vlasto Plate Coin!
« Reply #78 on: March 03, 2015, 04:34:57 pm »
today i am proud to announce the addition of my third plate coin from the M.P Vlasto collection, this time a nice drachm of a type i did not previously own...

i really like the owl on this one, standing as he is on an Ionic capital. but the provenance is the real attraction, and it is such a kick to think that while i may not know where this coin has been for the majority of the last 2400 years, but i sure know where it was in 1947, in a photo gallery being photographed for the 'Descriptive Catalogue of the Collection of Tarentine Coins formed by M. P. Vlasto', cataloged by Oscar Ravel.
enjoy...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-118944

~ Peter

Taras

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Re: Vlasto Plate Coin!
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2015, 05:08:08 pm »
today i am proud to announce the addition of my third plate coin from the M.P Vlasto collection, this time a nice drachm of a type i did not previously own...

i really like the owl on this one, standing as he is on an Ionic capital. but the provenance is the real attraction, and it is such a kick to think that while i may not know where this coin has been for the majority of the last 2400 years, but i sure know where it was in 1947, in a photo gallery being photographed for the 'Descriptive Catalogue of the Collection of Tarentine Coins formed by M. P. Vlasto', cataloged by Oscar Ravel.
enjoy...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-118944

~ Peter

...and now in 2015 in good hands again.
Great acquisition Peter, a beautiful coin, I love the owl on the capital!

Best :)
Nico

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2015, 09:53:53 pm »
thank you Nico, and thanks to everyone for the comments.

i have been trying to find a symbolic significance for the capital, but so far nothing has jumped up. could it denote some administrative or possibly architectural achievement? or just artistic expression with no deeper meaning? other drachms have obvious significance, such as the owl standing on an olive branch or lightning bolt. Evans does comment on these when they occur, but gives no reason for choosing the capital of a column for the owl's perch.

curiously,
~ Peter

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #81 on: March 05, 2015, 02:31:35 pm »
thank you Nico, and thanks to everyone for the comments.

i have been trying to find a symbolic significance for the capital, but so far nothing has jumped up. could it denote some administrative or possibly architectural achievement? or just artistic expression with no deeper meaning? other drachms have obvious significance, such as the owl standing on an olive branch or lightning bolt. Evans does comment on these when they occur, but gives no reason for choosing the capital of a column for the owl's perch.

curiously,
~ Peter

Hi Peter, I don't know if there is a religious symbolic meaning in the iconography, but I think that the owl standing on the ionic capital is a sign of Attic influences on Tarentine art. I also often have wondered why we found ionic capitals on Tarentine coinage, also staters, and why we find real ionic capitals in tarentine architectural archaeology, since IV c. BC.; why this typically Attic forms in the Doric Taras?
I gave myself a possible answer, thinking that there were strict contacts between Taras and the Molossian tribe of Epirus (there's no need to mention here the Epirot warlords coming to Italy to help Taras against Italic populations and Rome). We know the outcomes of the Peloponnesian War greatly conditioned the political developments in Epirus, where the gradual emergence of the Molossian monarchy started. The increasing Athenian influence of the tribes in Epirus, in particular for Molossians, changed the political balance inside Epirus and, consequently, also the territorial boundaries tribes, making possible the expansion and the rise of the Molossians. I think Epirots could have been the vectors for Attic influence into Tarentum since IV c. BC, after the end of the Peloponnesian War.

Best :)
Nico

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #82 on: March 05, 2015, 02:50:45 pm »
Hi Peter, I don't know if there is a religious symbolic meaning in the iconography, but I think that the owl standing on the ionic capital is a sign of Attic influences on Tarentine art. I also often have wondered why we found ionic capitals on Tarentine coinage, also staters, and why we find real ionic capitals in tarentine architectural archaeology, since IV c. BC.; why this typically Attic forms in the Doric Taras?


very interesting Nico, and thank you. the question of 'why not Doric' struck me too, but i put it down to fashion, that the period we're dicussing is long after the popularity of Doric architecture, regardless of the Spartan origins of Taras. the Ionic column was common throughout the rest of Achean influenced southern Italy, that that influence eventually reached Taras.
or not. i think i will be taking my copy of Vetruvius to work with me tonight.  :)

but my question really was not the reason an Ionic capital was chosen over a seemingly more appropriate Doric type, but rather 'why any column at all?'
this would still make me wonder whether the column was Doric, Ionic, Corinthian or even a modern I-beam. the owl was deliberately placed upon a specific object, and i'm  wondering why that object was chosen. my experience is that, for the most part, symbols on coins are not chosen willy-nilly. however i suppose all this could possibly boil down to simple artistic license.

regardless, i love this coin!   8)

thanks again for the food for thought,
~ Peter

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #83 on: March 05, 2015, 06:19:46 pm »
the question of 'why not Doric' struck me too, but i put it down to fashion, that the period we're dicussing is long after the popularity of Doric architecture, regardless of the Spartan origins of Taras. the Ionic column was common throughout the rest of Achean influenced southern Italy, that that influence eventually reached Taras.
or not. i think i will be taking my copy of Vetruvius to work with me tonight.  :)



My friend, I think ionic capitals like those seen in Taras (architecture and coinage from IV-III c) were not so trendy in south Italy, in fact there are not other samples in the near areas, and no samples from any Achaean polis.
All the surviving temples I visited during my travels in Magna Graecia have doric capitals. Of course I have seen the rare samples of ionic capitals from achaean poleis stored in museums, they are from Sybaris, Poseidonia, Metapontion, and even in doric Lokris, but they are quite different in style from the Tarentine samples, they are dated 500-450 BC, directly influenced in style from Asia Minor, not Attica (for example, the specimens at Lokris are directly influenced from Samos in style, earlier than the Eretteus in Athens; also try to google "capitello ionico Metaponto", you will see how much different style is, so oriental).
The ionic capitals from IV cent. Tarentum are different, unique samples for all the near areas and the whole coast of the Gulf of Tarentum, no samples from Apulia, Calabria or Lucania, no samples from any achaean poleis, we only know a sample from Rhegion.
Outside of south Italy the Tarentine IV century ionic-italic samples do match a sample found in Sicily, another one in Campania, and other samples in Etruria and Epirus, (all areas with remarkable Attic influences), and north Africa. The style of the IV century ionic-italic capitals evolved and did spread much in Sicily and Etruria where we find many later samples (again we do not find any samples in achaean poleis), and still later became popular in Republican Rome.
 
So the ionic capitals from achaean poleis you mentioned were made in years when the doric architecture was still very popular in Magna Graecia (where the concept of fashion, i.e. ionic capitals replacing older doric capitals is not so clear as in mainland Greece... think of Poseidonia, the temple of Hera, with doric columns, was built half century later after the temple of Athena, with ionic columns), and we do not find those types of eastern style ionic capitals in Taras. At the other hand the later tarentine ionic capital types are not found in any achaean poleis, and in style they are not influenced by the older eastern-inspired achaean samples, but they do match samples found in Epirus.
I wish I had more time to post images and draw maps to make more clear what I'm stating, but the man-faced bull is calling me now, sorry. :)
Bye Peter, and thanks to you so much for giving me your imputs to talk about the history and art of the lands I love.
Regards
Nico


Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #84 on: March 05, 2015, 08:10:09 pm »
okay, it's just not fair that you can take a short drive and see this stuff for yourself while all i get is 12,000 foot mountains and 300 foot Douglas Fir trees. where is Lord Elgin when you need him?!   ;)

thank you for that clarity Nico, i'm afraid i was a victim of my own assumptions. but yes, the image of the temples at Paestum Poseidonia is filling my head with Doric influences even now.
but i guess we'll never know why this damned bird chose to lite on that column. i guess i'll go with random perch and artistic expression and stop looking for a deeper meaning.





...no, on second thought  that's probably never gonna happen.   ;)

in avian limbo,
~ Peter

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2015, 10:48:52 am »
okay, it's just not fair that you can take a short drive and see this stuff for yourself while all i get is 12,000 foot mountains and 300 foot Douglas Fir trees. where is Lord Elgin when you need him?!   ;)


LOL  ;D



but i guess we'll never know why this damned bird chose to lite on that column. i guess i'll go with random perch and artistic expression and stop looking for a deeper meaning.





...no, on second thought  that's probably never gonna happen.   ;)

in avian limbo,
~ Peter


Peter... the owl on the capital is also depicted on a bronze quincunx minted in Tiati during the second punic war.
Maybe could the meaning be political?  ???

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2015, 03:46:53 pm »
Peter... the owl on the capital is also depicted on a bronze quincunx minted in Tiati during the second punic war.
Maybe could the meaning be political?  ???


that's an interesting connection Nico, and one i never would have thought to look for. so, possibly a political connection.
however thanks to the efforts of our resident Research Queen i am now focussing my energy in a more religious direction.
i haven't found anything definitive yet, but there seems to be some connection between the Ionic column and the cult of Dionysus, which would not be out of place at all in Taras and might explain the occurence of this seemingly 'foreign' style in a predominantly Doric polis.
stay tuned!

~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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New Plate Coin!
« Reply #87 on: March 29, 2015, 03:58:20 pm »
today i'm happy to announce the addition of a new plate coin, from Taras!

this silver fraction is Vlasto 1489, a litra from the late 4th century BC...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-119575

this coin came with some odd red deposits on the obverse. a friend thought it may have been wax, which it does look like in the photo. however these deposits are quite hard and appear to be paint or nail polish. some of the bigger spots came off with a little pressure from the back side of my dental pick, but any further picking might scratch the surface. i might try a soak and some brushing, but i think i'll wait and see if i can determine what these deposits are first. how these might have ended up on an important coin like this is a mystery though. they don't appear to be on the original plate image from 1947, but then that plate image is not very clear.

in any case i'm really happy to add my 4th Vlasto plate coin, especially since it was a gift from a much appreciated friend.

gratefully,
~ Peter


Offline areich

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #88 on: March 30, 2015, 05:28:54 am »
I've never found out exactly how it was done, but apparently plaster casts (or the moulds) were made with sealing wax. My trial with a modern coin left me with a coin covered in almost unremovable sealing wax, so I wouldn't recommend it. It is very possible that you're not supposed to make the moulds from sealing wax but the actual casts. Or it could be putty that has hardened but that doesn't seem as likely, since you would remove that when it is fresh.
Andreas Reich

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #89 on: March 31, 2015, 02:08:30 pm »
thanks Andreas.
actually another friend suggested the same thing, but i was thinking about a softer wax. sealing wax, being much harder, is a possibility i hadn't considered.
i'll try to detach another sample and see if it melts like wax.

~ Peter

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #90 on: April 01, 2015, 03:43:32 pm »
Thank you Andreas for your valuable opinion.
As I wrote in another thread, we know that Ravel, by his own admission, he compiled the entire Vlasto catalogue without taking direct view of the collection. Dr. W. Schwabacher sent him the molds made from all the coins in the collection, and Ravel made cast copies to be photographed for the plates.
Maybe, as I thought, those red deposits were traces of that historical numismatic case.

The coin is lovely, congratulations Peter  ;)

Regards :)
Nico

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #91 on: April 28, 2015, 04:10:54 pm »
the latest addition to my Taras collection is this 3rd century bronze.
i'd like to say it looks better in hand, but that is not the case this time. still, it is a very hard to find type and i was glad to find it.
it is a bit unusual for a Tarentine coin, having none of the usual devices we've come to expect (Horse, dolphin, shell, etc).

check it out...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-120340

~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #92 on: June 25, 2015, 04:08:24 pm »
i was hoping to announce the 40th entry to my Taras collection with something special, but unfortunately that coin has been stuck in Customs in SF for the past month.   >:(

however my tax return was pretty nice so i have added a couple of fractions in the meantime, numbers 40 and 41.

the first is an early  hemilitra from the 5th century BC...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-121446

and the next a litra from 150 or so years later, which i aquired for the left-facing dolphin...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-121558

in fact i'm not 100% positive about the attribution of either of these coins, but this was as close as i could get with the resources i have available. i don't think they are too far off, and both are different than the dealer attributions

hopefully my didrachm will be released from captivity soon!

~ Peter

Offline quadrans

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2015, 12:33:21 am »
Nice collection .. +++

 Q.
All the Best :), Joe
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=31252

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2015, 03:06:40 am »
thanks Q!    :)

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2015, 03:48:34 pm »
i was hoping to announce the 40th entry to my Taras collection with something special, but unfortunately that coin has been stuck in Customs in SF for the past month.   >:(

however my tax return was pretty nice so i have added a couple of fractions in the meantime, numbers 40 and 41.

the first is an early  hemilitra from the 5th century BC...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-121446

and the next a litra from 150 or so years later, which i aquired for the left-facing dolphin...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-121558

in fact i'm not 100% positive about the attribution of either of these coins, but this was as close as i could get with the resources i have available. i don't think they are too far off, and both are different than the dealer attributions

hopefully my didrachm will be released from captivity soon!

~ Peter

I love the rarest litra, great acquisition Peter!

bye ;)
Nico

Offline Enodia

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New plate coin!
« Reply #96 on: July 17, 2015, 05:07:42 am »
thanks Nico, i'm glad you like it.
i hope you like this one too as i know you are into Herakles first labor...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-122214

Head of Athena right, helmet decorated with a hippocamp.
Herakles strangling the Nemean lion, EY above.


this is the plate coin from the Descriptive Catalogue of the Collection of Tarentine Coins formed by M. P. Vlasto (1947).

not terribly different from most of this type, but i'm still excited!   :)

~ Peter

Offline Molinari

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #97 on: July 17, 2015, 09:07:34 am »
That's a great new plate coin, Peter.  If I were to wear a helmet, I too would adorn it with a hippocamp.

I wonder how many Vlasto plate coins are owned just between the two of you?!

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #98 on: July 17, 2015, 01:18:33 pm »
not enough!    8)

and i agree about the hippocamp. i certainly wouldn't want Skylla sitting on my head!

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #99 on: July 17, 2015, 02:02:24 pm »
lol! i thought you might agree.   :) 

to answer your question Nick, i now have 5 coins from Vlasto's collection, and counting (i hope). i believe Nico can top that though.

in anticipa... tion,
~ Peter

 

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