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Author Topic: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens  (Read 22435 times)

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Offline Vladislav D

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"True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« on: February 14, 2012, 11:52:39 am »
Got this for Christmas - "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens - not a coins , but I think is pretty cool have them in my coin collection . No much information about them . This is from [REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Offline apgrassman

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2012, 12:23:39 pm »
Hi,

Interesting token

I picked one up, in November last year, fits in nicely with my small Byzantine Collection, the only short article i know about these tokens is in Mitchiner i think? where it states "

"these pieces probably allude to the recovery of the true cross by the emperor Heraclius, these pieces may have been officially produced for distribution to those who attended the true cross on its journey", interesting thought

Mine along with those shown by Mitchiner apparently came from a hoard of these that was found in Turkey

Obviously if anyone can shine any more light i would also be interested.

Regards

apgrassman

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2012, 05:05:56 pm »
I've wanted to pick one up too, but most are broken in some way.  I have seen complete ones, but the price is as to be expected.

I copied this description from one that I saw for sale:

During the war between the Byzantine and Sassanian Empires during 7th Century AD, Rhsru II captured Jerusalem and took the true cross as spoils of war. Taken back to Persia it was regained by Heraclius and taken to Constantinople and then across Asia minor back to its resting place at Jerusalem. During its return travel legend has it that a piece of the cross was taken and burned , the ashes were then mixed with clay and tokens were made commemorating the return of the true cross to Jerusalem. The tokens show an impression of the true cross with the heads of St Peter and St Paul in the angles of the cross. cf. Pilgrimage: Becket to Elvis, 1995, no. 82

Offline Gert

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2012, 03:57:16 am »
This piece of information, that a piece of the true cross was mixed with clay, I could only find in sales descriptions. These of course aren't the most objective sources of information and I wonder if there is any substance to this element. Could be just a sales pitch.
Regards
Gert

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2012, 11:21:15 am »
Agreed.....just passing along something I had read about the tokens.

Here's an image of one of the few complete ones I've seen offered.....


Offline Abu Galyon

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2012, 12:19:44 pm »
Is there any actual evidence that the figures depicted at the foot of the cross are SS Peter and Paul?  Or is it just some dealer's guess? Constantine and Helena would seem much more obvious choices, or perhaps John and the BVM.

Bill R.

Offline Gert

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2012, 01:48:50 pm »
If these tokens allude to the recovery of the True Cross by Heraclius, which they seem to do, the figures are indeed more plausibly identified as St. Constantine and St. Helena, rather than Peter and Paul.

Here are two tokens in my collection: the type with X's on the horizontal bar of the cross and the type with H-N-E-I in the fields.
Regards
Gert

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2012, 05:37:46 pm »
Very nice examples, Gert.


Offline wileyc

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2012, 06:07:29 pm »
I had never heard of these before, interesting pieces.


I was looking for the reference:

 Pilgrimage: Becket to Elvis, 1995, no. 82

That was mentioned as supporting evidence. I have JSTOR and other University access here in the states and have been unable to locate it. What type of source is it?

cw

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2012, 10:34:53 pm »
After spending a few hours on internet I  find  only two more small   pieces of information. One from The Britsh Museum - about what Simon Bendall donated some tokens to museum . Second one from William M. Rosenblum Rare Coins Mailbid Sale #35D ( November 10, 2005 ) LOT 409 - where says : "(See Staffordshire University's Flaxman Gallery "A Pilgrim's clay token from the Holyland" 1995-1996)"

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]



Offline wileyc

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2012, 12:21:07 am »
I have found a few sites using "Mitchiner Medieval Pilgrim & Secular badges 1070"

as a attribution. Curious as it seems to be a listing for finds in Britain. I have been able to request by my University interlibrary loan, but it will be a week or so till it arrives.

cw

Offline echizento

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2012, 02:22:36 pm »
What is the size of these tokens?
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Offline Gert

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2012, 05:11:21 am »
I have the Mitchiner book in my library. In the text, they are connected to the recovery of the True Cross, but no indication of an actual piece being mixed in with the clay. Also, no attempt at identification of the figures.
Regards
Gert

Offline wileyc

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2012, 10:04:43 am »
I have JSTOR access and have reviewed a few articles about byzantine tokens connected with pilgrimages. I had not appreciated the diversity of what is referred to as stamps and tokens. I have yet to see a reference about this type in particular.


Cw

Offline Gert

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2014, 04:00:09 pm »
As a belated answer to Echizento: these tokes usually measure about 17-21mm. I recently added one more to my collection. The last type (d) still to go...

True Cross with three human figures; two on either side of cross, one below
20mm; 1.82g; Mitchiner type b, 1065-1066.

Regards
Gert


Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2014, 04:47:41 pm »
I don't recall where this was from, but I have this article saved....


Offline Gert

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2014, 03:58:20 pm »
Yesterday, I managed to complete my set of True Cross tokens with Mitchiner's type d. This one is quite large, measuring 20mm in diameter. As can be seen from the composite picture, types b and d are larger in comparison to types a and c. This is also reflected in the examples listed by Mitchiner.
Regards
Gert

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2014, 05:38:56 pm »
Congratulations completing the set !!

I think I speak for many here that we'd love to see a plate of the collection......perhaps as a virtual coin tray ?

Offline Molinari

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2014, 06:24:59 pm »
Congrats, that's an impressive set.

Offline Nassif

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2014, 03:41:03 pm »
Hi All;
I can say that i have learned something new with this board: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
Thanks
Nassif

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2014, 01:13:49 pm »
My new token .
15 mm.

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2016, 03:11:15 pm »
I thought I would post this here to keep most of the information for this somewhat specialized discussion in a single thread....my apologies in advance if that is not proper protocol....


I finally added a "True Cross" to my collection.  I had looked for one for a while and missed out on a few offered specimens.  This past weekend I was at a local coin show with a pretty decent representation by ancients dealers.  There was a new dealer (well known) in attendance, who had one in his case.

It was attributed as "Mitchiner 1070" but upon closer inspection, two "X"s are readily apparent above the vertical bar of the cross.  So it more closely fits the Mitchiner type "c" examples (1067, 68, or 69).  The token is 18.47 mm in diameter and weighs 1.61 grams.

Offline Gert

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2016, 03:35:25 pm »
Congratulations. Yes, you are surely right in correcting that attribution. Just curious: did it come with that weird sales pitch that the Byzantines burnt a piece of the most sacred relic on earth to produce them?
Regards
Gert

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2016, 05:09:51 pm »
Thanks Gert.

No, but we talked about them for while and obviously it came up, but I was already aware of that traditional rumor.

He did explain a bit to me about the hoard in Turkey from which many current specimens come from.  I believe he called it the "Maker's Hoard" as they were found in a container in the ruins of a building and it is thought by some that it may have been the location of the actual "maker" of the tokens.

Is there anything published anywhere about this hoard?

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2016, 05:10:21 pm »
Tiny pieces of the true cross were sent as relics to various churches, some of which still have them. It would not be too surprising if they burned a small piece and mixed the ashes with the clay to make the tokens. I would like to know where that story originates. I have read it many times in sales listings.
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Offline Gert

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2016, 06:43:25 pm »


Offline Simon

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2017, 12:50:37 pm »
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.


Offline djmacdo

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2019, 06:17:28 pm »

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2019, 06:25:53 pm »

Offline Molinari

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2019, 12:07:47 pm »

Offline Molinari

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2019, 12:56:52 pm »

Offline JBF

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2019, 03:06:47 pm »

Offline Simon

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2019, 09:16:32 pm »
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Molinari

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2019, 03:43:47 pm »

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2019, 04:09:36 pm »
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.


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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2019, 05:35:50 pm »

Offline djmacdo

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
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Offline Macerata1

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2020, 06:30:59 am »

 

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