Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Paduan Question  (Read 2438 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7002
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Paduan Question
« on: March 06, 2010, 12:17:24 pm »
I know many people here consider Paduans to simply be fakes, others to be worthy of collection in their own right.  To be honest I am attracted to these large heavy coins which can have some amazing artistry.  This post is not to argue the point of Paduans as fake or not but rather how to tell the difference between "real" Paduans and after casts.

 I see lots of Paduans running between $25-150 and up  but some are refered to as After casts.  How do you tell the difference between the two.  For example I've been looking at a Nero port of Ostia Paduan that weighs in at 22.7g but I don't know how to tell if it is "original" or not.  Thanks!

gavignano

  • Guest
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2010, 08:37:21 pm »
Get some nice quality pics of "genuine" Paduans, and then compare. you will see that "cast of a cast" look - sometimes bubbles, a seam, blurry/fuzzy details, etc. Some of the original Paduans are quite stunning - with a more subtle "cast" look.

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7002
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2010, 09:22:27 am »
That's what is confusing.  Here is an exquisit "Paduan" by board member Jerome Holderman.  He says it is an "aftercast".


https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-39853


Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12138
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2010, 07:59:53 pm »
Hmm, doesn't look cast to me.
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2010, 10:52:26 pm »
That's what is confusing.  Here is an exquisit "Paduan" by board member Jerome Holderman.  He says it is an "aftercast".


https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-39853



Following the link says this is a 'Later electrotype from the original Paduan dies'.  That is a big step from 'aftercast'.

I personally have never seen what I believe to be a 'struck' Paduan in person.  I have seen cast medallions that are a good deal better looking than we usually associate with the term 'cast'.  I'm not sure how to be certain when dealing with casts of the quality a Cavino-grade artist could produce. 

Offline antoninus1

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2010, 05:23:00 am »
I think the main point is that original medals by Giovanni Cavino from Padua are struck, not cast.
They are original Renaissance works of art. Only they should be called Paduans.

The price of cast copies of Cavino´s medals is determined by the quality and the time of production.
And of course whether it´s a cast of a cast.
All these are no Paduans, but only copies of them.


Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2010, 07:15:16 am »

Lawrence's 1883 book on the subject is available online (text).  It clearly explains several points of interest but when dies still exist, anything is possible.  If certainly explains how an electrotype looking nicer than any copy (or any original) could exist.  I took particular interest in the mention that original Cavino strikes are often poorly alloyed.

http://www.archive.org/stream/medalsbygiovanni00lawriala/medalsbygiovanni00lawriala_djvu.txt
quoted from the above:

One hundred and twenty-two of Cavino's dies have been pre-
served and are at present in the Bibliotheque Nationale at Paris.
They were brought from Italy in the seventeenth century by Th.
Lecomte, who obtained them from the Lazzara family of Padua,
and who bequeathed them to the Abbey of Sainte Genevieve in
1670. They are described and illustrated by Claude du Molinet
in his work, entitled : Le Cabirlet de la Bibliotheque de Sainte
Genevieve. Paris, 1692, f
.....
The  " Paduan " is usually too round and regular, and the flan is too
thin ; the dots of the border or engrailment are large and in irreg-
ular relief ; the letters are flat and square, especially N ; M is
broad at the base and narrow at the top ; H and D are square and
heavy, and A and V are too narrow and sharp. The coins struck by
Cavino himself (the dies were used after his death) are usually
composed of red and yellow copper, poorly alloyed.

.....

56. M ANTONINVS AVG TR P XXIX. Bust of M. Aurelius r.,

laureate, in cuirass and paludamentum.

Rev. IMP VII COS- III. Victory seated r. on shield,
holding palm, and on her knees a shield inscribed VIC ' AVG.;
in front, trophy.

Medallion. Imitation of a genuine medallion. Montigny, 52. Cohen,
II., p. 503, No. 367. Cavino engraved two obverse dies for this medal,
which differ but slightly in workmanship.


Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7002
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2010, 05:41:00 pm »
Thank you everyone.  Can someone post a picture of a known original Paduan?

Offline quisquam

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 509
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2010, 11:34:50 pm »

Offline Robert_Brenchley

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7307
  • Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    • My gallery
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2010, 12:58:28 pm »
The style may be quite wrong, but I'd be very happy to own it!
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum

Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2010, 09:29:50 pm »
Does anyone know what characteristic is shown on this example that makes it an original Cavino strike rather than a later restrike from his dies?

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7002
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2010, 10:38:53 pm »
That is the question I'm trying to figure out!  Would make a great Numiswiki article if someone could explain....

Offline DruMAX

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
  • Pecunia non olet
    • Cache Coins
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2010, 08:25:49 am »
I find the Paduan medals to be more attractive and lovely than most authentic ancient coins and medals I see but then again, at that time the artistry in this field was reaching a zenith. Medals and coins from around this time period are some of the most outstanding examples in the craft and the practitioners were some of the most accomplished.

Offline areich

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 8706
    • Ancient Greek and Roman Coins, featuring BMC online and other books
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2010, 08:33:59 am »
I would like to disagree with that.
Andreas Reich

Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2010, 09:19:55 am »
I would like to disagree with that.

I'll have to go with areich on this one.  In particular, the Tiberius here strikes me as bland in style.  I expected Cavino would do better but that is an opinion based on what I prefer rather than some absolute of truth and beauty.  The Aurelius is better but I'm still more fond of the 2nd century portraits.  What these coins have is a look like they were made yesterday.  In the case of existing dies or electrotypes, maybe they were.   

Preferences in style changes over time.   Research Apollo Belvedere for an example.   Some of us have style preferences that can only be described as odd.  I'm one.  I enjoy the art of Eastern Severans and several Central Asian cultures.  Many of you prefer Athens and Rome.  That's OK.

Offline DruMAX

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
  • Pecunia non olet
    • Cache Coins
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2010, 11:06:03 am »
I would like to disagree with that.

No...I wont allow this :) Okay...fine...if you must...

The examples here are not my favorite of the lot but certainly it is a matter of taste and my opinion on this matter is just that, an opinion and of course there are always exceptions to any such subjective rule as I have seen ancient examples of coins where the artistry took my breath away. I do simply love medal from the 17th and 18th century though and DO personaly love the example of the masters from this time more than most others. I think these are lovely pieces all the same and looking over my own personal collection (a low end collector with few, if any, pieces one might call outstanding) they are certainly far more lovely artistically speaking than anything ancient I personally own. I don't mind something looking like it was made yesterday and indeed if they were, I am fine with that as I collect everything from Ancient to early 20th century. I speak only about the artistry. For example, I do not need patina on an ancient coin to still find it striking and lovely. I am a bit fast a loose but when I first saw these medals they struck me in that way which is hard to describe, but I loved them. My favorite would probably his version of Galba.

Offline Hydatius

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1061
  • I love this forum!
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2010, 12:42:23 pm »
Non disputandum de gustibus.
(You can't argue about taste)

Richard
Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine quam turpe nescire.

gavignano

  • Guest
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2010, 10:34:34 pm »
It makes we wonder if:
we never saw the genuine tiberius first, and therefore "knew" that style as "correct', would we choose the Paduan in a "taste" test?

Offline quisquam

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 509
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2010, 11:38:16 pm »
There is no ancient counterpart,  the obverse is copied from an altar of lyon-sestertius, with phantasy legend and orientated clockwise instead of counterclockwise, and  the reverse is a copy of the obverse of this coin:
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=369975

This medal is not ancient. That's why I have no problem with the style. To my mind it's not only a matter of taste, but if you see this piece merely as a not very convincing copy or as a product of it's time.

Stefan

Offline Robert_Brenchley

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7307
  • Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    • My gallery
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2010, 03:55:35 pm »
They're obviously not comparable with ancient coins, and given the choice, I'd pick the ancient any time. But that's a fine piece of engraving in its own right, and a piece of history since they were done for wealthy gentlemen on the grand tour. It's a bit more significant than something designed for an eBay scam.
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum

Offline Paul D3

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2010, 04:54:07 pm »
They're obviously not comparable with ancient coins, and given the choice, I'd pick the ancient any time. But that's a fine piece of engraving in its own right, and a piece of history since they were done for wealthy gentlemen on the grand tour. It's a bit more significant than something designed for an eBay scam.

ALOT more significant than ebay scam material. The Renaissance was a spectacular historical era. I already collect books from the Renaissance, and I collect too many things is general, otherwise I would gleefuly collect Pauduans

Offline MagisterRiggs

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 47
Re: Paduan Question
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2012, 09:44:18 am »
I am very new to all this....As my main subject is teaching Latin the ancient coins have a special meaning for me...but I also teach AP Art History and there is something in the Paduan that appeals to the Art Historian in me....maybe the Renaissance looking back to the classical...Paduans would be a great example for my students....

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity