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Author Topic: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate  (Read 5984 times)

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Offline Bacchus

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British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« on: November 29, 2009, 07:03:52 am »

Offline mauseus

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2009, 03:42:05 pm »
Hi,

I have a collection of over 70 all from circulation plus two fake £2 coins; they seem to turn up in waves. Another board member has a larger collection of these things.

With the design and the edge lettering changing year by year there is plenty of scope for the forgers to get these wrong compared to th year on the obverse.

Regards,

Mauseus

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2009, 08:41:31 pm »
A major problem with huge value implications. But look on the bright side, at least the proponents are too busy and raking too much in to focus on the ancient coin market. An interesting Tuscan connection is noted in the following extract.

Robert Matthews site has an interesting summary of the situation in his Counterfeit Coin Newsletter No. 12:
http://www.coinauthentication.co.uk/newsletter12.html#one_poundcfts

Extract from the newsletter follows:

British one-pound coin counterfeiting: a further update

The size of the problem

The first six months of 2009 saw an unprecedented amount of coverage by Britain's national media of the number of counterfeit one-pounds in circulation. This started on 29th January when Martin Hickman, "The Independent", unveiled the results of the Royal Mint's autumn 2008 survey of circulating one-pound coins. This survey showed an increase of of counterfeit one-pounds found from 2.06% in autumn 2007 to 2.58% in autumn 2008. These latest figures meant one in every forty one-pound coins circulating was counterfeit, a total of about 37.5 million counterfeit coins. The survey sampled 15,481 coins from 31 places in October and November 2008. The highest level of fakes was found in Northern Ireland at 3.6% with London and the South-East second highest at 2.97% counterfeits found. As is current Fleet Street practice this story was copied, without acknowledgement, by a number of the other national daily papers.

On 8 April Ben Ando, BBC News, reported the views of Andy Brown, Willings Services Ltd, that the number of counterfeit one-pound coins in circulation was much larger than found by the Royal Mint. Willings make machines to check coins for other organisations such as local council car parks. They had found that up to 5% of the one-pound coins they tested were counterfeit. This is twice the Royal Mint findings and would mean one in every twenty one-pound coins is a counterfeit or up to 73 million counterfeit coins. Again this story was picked up by a number of national media outlets with very little original input.

Finally at the end of July, Ken Peters, President of the Counterfeit Coin Club, release the results of a survey carried out by the club. Their volunteer "checkers" examined over 15,000 one-pound coins and found 3.26% were counterfeit. This would mean one in every thirty circulating one-pound coins being counterfeit or 48 million counterfeits. The survey did not include any "checkers" from Northern Ireland or Scotland, and London was under represented. Based on the Royal Mint's regional figures this survey would have been expected to find less than the 2.58% found by the Royal Mint's survey. Unfortunately this significant survey was not reported by the national media.

Police activity, arrests and court cases

12 March 2009, the Italian financial police reported the arrest of two brothers, in the Tuscany region, and the seizure of an illegal mint making one-pound counterfeit coins. The police believe the minting equipment was about to be dismantled and sent to England. One of the brother had previously been a long term resident in Britain. The press(es?) and notching(?) machines seized by the police were reported to have been supplied from companies that normally supply the gold jewellery trade. A photograph of a supposedly seized fake one-pound coin shown in "Arezzo Notizie" is a copy of the relatively recently introduced 2008 coin with the reverse designed by Matthew Dent. The only UK report of these arrests appeared as a brief paragraph in London's "Evening Standard". The Google translation of the "Arezzo Notizie" report concludes with, "..investigations are continuing at the international level to determine whether criminal organisations are involved".

4 May 2009, "This is Stanworth" reported that a twenty-year old Birmingham man was arrested after allegedly fleeing from the Tamworth branch of the National Provincial Bank where he had attempted to change a £500 bag of counterfeit one-pound coins.

28 May 2009, "The Liverpool Echo" reported on a court case that saw the conviction of a local businessman and another man described as his "foot soldier". In 2006 the businessman used his six petrol stations to laundered up to £200,000 of counterfeit one-pound coins into accounts at the NatWest Bank. A drum of counterfeit one-pound coins was found at a storage room at the businessman's home. The police found £22,500 fake coins in bags of the home of the "foot soldier", who was responsible for bagging and depositing the money. The prosecution stated that the practice of using steel drums to contain one-pound coin counterfeits was proved when police stopped a van containing identical drums near Heathrow airport. They contained £400,000 in fake coins. Although Hounslow is near Heathrow airport, see CCN10, it seems informative that the airport was used to describe the location rather than just London. The businessman was gaoled for two years and the "foot soldier" for eight months.

29 May 2009, "Kent on Line" reported the arrest of four men after a raid on an illegal mint making fake one-pound coins on a farm just outside Sittingbourne, Kent. Three of the men were charged with possessing, producing and manufacturing counterfeit coins. The forth was bailed pending further enquiries. Police confirmed that, "thousands of pounds of counterfeit coins and a press machine were found". The farmer who owned the barn involved said that it had been rented out to the same person for five or six years.

[Sources: The Independent, BBC News, Ken Peters, AGI News, Toscana TV, Arezzo Notizie, La Nazione, IGN, Evening Standard, Mail Online, This is Tamworth, Liverpool Echo, This is Kent, Kent News]


Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 03:36:56 pm »
I wonder whether anyone apart from officials cares very much. If it looks like money and acts like money, it's money. If the Mint has trouble identifying the fakes, then nobody else is going to!
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Lloyd Taylor

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 05:47:55 pm »
I wonder whether anyone apart from officials cares very much. If it looks like money and acts like money, it's money. If the Mint has trouble identifying the fakes, then nobody else is going to!

I suspect that they'd be just as worried as anyone in the US is about counterfeit dollars in circulation... not very much as long as they can pass it off to the next guy in a transaction.

The real issue is twofold; loss of revenue to the state treasury and the debasement of currency value if counterfeiting becomes endemic in a nation state.  The latter will ultimately result in a loss of confidence in the currency and a downward spiral of value to the point of it not being worth more than the metal it is struck on, or the paper it is printed on. 

Confidence and trust underpin the value of any fiduciary currency. Loose it and it all "all goes to hell in a handbasket". Hence the concern of officials, particularly the US Fed and US Treasury in the case of the US dollar and the fine balancing act now being played out as the printing presses roll 24/7 in the wake of the GFC.  Watch this space, as the officials by their own actions, risk doing more damage than any group of counterfeiters!

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2009, 02:24:47 pm »
That's what I was thinking. I know shops don't care about kake pound coins, so nobody else does either. I doubt whether a spate of counterfeit change is going to destroy the economy, though I suspect the Nazi plan to flood the country with fake fivers might have done. But the government printing money is another matter. They created the situation by failing to regulate the banks, and their short-term solution only threatens to create even longer-term problems than we already have.
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Offline Bacchus

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009, 03:15:55 pm »
As an interesting follow up - do you think that in 500 years time "collectors" will be able to tell the difference?  Will there be learned monographs written demonstrating that this "fakery" was the cause of the great economic crash of the early 2000's? - when that quaint cash system was still used.  Perhaps they will think that quality control went out the window for a period ...

There are many parallels you could make with our study of ancient coinage.

Malcolm

Offline mauseus

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2009, 03:53:45 pm »
Hi,
Quote from: Bacchus on December 01, 2009, 03:15:55 pm
As an interesting follow up - do you think that in 500 years time "collectors" will be able to tell the difference?  Will there be learned monographs written demonstrating that this "fakery" was the cause of the great economic crash of the early 2000's? - when that quaint cash system was still used.  Perhaps they will think that quality control went out the window for a period ...
An interesting question! The coins of Carausius and sestertii of Postumus may be determined from imitations on a crude basis by die axis (you may not detect an imitation if it is the correct axis but it allows you to identify those on incorrect axis) and many of the fake pounds do exhibit very irregular axes. Given that all official British is struck on regular axes then hopefully someone will make that connection. Also the metal used - I have some very crude "painted lead" copies that are so stand out. On the other hand there are good ones which are slightly soft "cast" in appearence. Others it is the wrong date/reverse type combination. I think or at least hope (so long as the study of numismatics continues) that this knowledge will not be lost in this "information age".

Regards,

Mauseus 

Offline commodus

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2009, 01:59:56 am »
I think or at least hope (so long as the study of numismatics continues) that this knowledge will not be lost in this "information age". 

Good point.
Our present "information age" may well end up being a huge and mysterious void when people of the distant future look back upon the past.
 :(
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2009, 04:06:53 pm »
You may well be right, since data systems from a couple of decades ago are now only readable by a few specialists who still have the original equipment available. How is the archaeologist of 2000 years hence going to read a DVD, I wonder?
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Offline commodus

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2009, 05:57:33 pm »
How is the archaeologist of 2000 years hence going to read a DVD, I wonder?

Simply put, he won't.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2009, 08:02:47 pm »
Quote from: commodus on December 02, 2009, 05:57:33 pm
How is the archaeologist of 2000 years hence going to read a DVD, I wonder?

Simply put, he won't.

Agree.  What lasts 2000 years? Answer: gold, silver, bronze, ceramic and stone and rarely some wood sealed in an airtight, deep, dry, desert tomb.  Nothing much else survives the duration and certainly not a DVD or paper manuscript. In the final analysis pretty much everything is reduced to dust in this timeframe, most thought included. The truly amazing thing is that from the relatively few remnants of the ancient past that survive we can deduce so much!

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2009, 04:42:32 pm »
The Dead Sea Scrolls are over 2000 years old, to name but one example. The Vindolanda Letters aren't that old, but they were preserved under our soil conditions.
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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2009, 05:24:24 pm »
I think for the first time maybe in history, nobody cares if the currency is fake or not, the fake £1 coins are so easy to spot. Yet shop keepers accept them, because the banks accept them. If the banks accept them, well where does that leave the state of Britains economy? Maybe in a round about way it helps us out of the pit we are in.

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2009, 07:07:01 pm »
The Dead Sea Scrolls are over 2000 years old, to name but one example. The Vindolanda Letters aren't that old, but they were preserved under our soil conditions.

You're right, the oldest of the Dead Sea scrolls is a little over 2150 years old.  They all fall in the range 150 BC-70 AD.  Given their state at recovery in 1947-1956 I very much doubt that they would be little more than dust, let alone  be legible in the year 3000, if left in the caves for another 1,000 years! But as I said deep dry environments are capable of near miraculous preservation of organic material.  Unfortunately such environments are the exception rather than the rule and in the modern day world we rarely frequent, let alone store written material or digital records in such places, which lessens the chances for the archaeologist in the year 4009.  That is, if such people are still around, which seems unlikely given the prognostications of environmental catastrophists.


Offline PeterD

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2009, 01:50:01 pm »
We shouldn't forget that our coins and banknotes are token money. As such they can't be de-based.  In theory they represent 'money' in the form of gold and silver held by the Bank of England. However, these days you wouldn't be able to walk into the Bank of England and get a few ounces of gold for your coins or notes - especially as Gordon Brown sold off most of our gold some time ago. So coins and notes just endlessly circulate with with worn-out coins and notes being replaced when required. So counterfeit coins are are just more of the same. They don't actually take money away from the treasury or anyone else. Banknotes are a bit different due to their higher value. The person holding a counterfeit note when it is 'revealed' is the loser.
Peter, London

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2009, 03:36:29 pm »
So counterfeit coins are are just more of the same. They don't actually take money away from the treasury or anyone else.

Note quite the case. The Treasury/Exchequer does not give a pound coins away, any more than it gives a ten pound notes away.  It is precisely because these are fiduciary or token money that there is massive revenue in it for a state Treasury.

New coins are delivered into circulation via the banking system in various ways, sometimes as new for old swap, but at other times, when money supply is increased, via loan mechanisms to the banks that result in revenue accruing to treasury. Remember that the coin has a cost to manufacture, which in this case happens to be far less than even the shrinking face value; 3 pence to manufacture and one pound of value! The difference is the effective margin (revenue) to the Treasury. The latter does not simply give away the difference of 97 pence, no matter what anyone thinks.

This intrinsic value- face value margin is why under the Hellenistic Greek and later  Roman rulers, civic authorities sought from rulers and competed with each other for the right to issue civic bronze coinage. The difference between the intrinsic (metal) value and the face value accrued to the civic treasury as revenue.   The right to mint civic coinage was jealously guarded and not given lightly by rulers without some major return favor. But without it there would be no Roman Provincial Coinage. 

It also explains why small silver denominations in modern coinage disappeared just about everywhere  around forty years ago, to be replaced by nickel derivatives. The intrinsic silver value in the original coins became less than the face value and thus the Treasury was loosing money/revenue in their manufacture. The solution, swap to cheap but shiny nickel alloy and the mugs won't know the difference.

Still don't believe me that there is revenue/money to a state Treasury in fiduciary coinage?

Then go to the Government and ask for a few sacks of the "valueless" pound coins on which they "make no money" and tell me what response you get!

The more counterfeits in circulation the less the call on a state treasury for the genuine item and thus less revenue for the Treasury.  This is a major reason as to why why officials get a bit pissed at counterfeiters!

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2009, 06:39:38 pm »
So counterfeit coins are are just more of the same. They don't actually take money away from the treasury or anyone else. Banknotes are a bit different due to their higher value. The person holding a counterfeit note when it is 'revealed' is the loser.

Observation: Interesting that apparently we don't get upset with modern counterfeits in circulation, but do with fakes of ancient coins in the market place? The duality of response raises some interesting questions. Value is one aspect, the risk of getting caught without the ability to flip it on perhaps another?

At what value point do you worry about a fake or counterfeit item $1, $20, $100 or higher?

If the fake serves the same purpose and functionality as the authentic item why be concerned?

If you find you have 20 counterfeit one pound coins in you pocket would you be as concerned as holding a single counterfeit twenty pound note and if not, why not? 

Plus lots of other possible questions that go to the heart of our perceptions of and attitudes towards fakes, fakers and fakery.

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2009, 06:48:36 pm »
..... So counterfeit coins are are just more of the same. They don't actually take money away from the treasury or anyone else. Banknotes are a bit different due to their higher value. The person holding a counterfeit note when it is 'revealed' is the loser.

Observation: Interesting that apparently we don't get upset with modern counterfeit coins in circulation, but do with fakes of ancient coins in the market place? The duality of response raises some interesting questions. Value is one aspect, the risk of getting caught without the ability to flip it on perhaps another?

At what value point do you worry about a fake or counterfeit item $1, $20, $100 or higher?

If the fake serves the same purpose and functionality as the authentic item why be concerned?

If you find you have 20 counterfeit one pound coins in you pocket would you be as concerned as holding a single counterfeit twenty pound note and if not, why not? 

Plus lots of other possible questions that go to the heart of our perceptions of and attitudes towards fakes, fakers and fakery.

Offline PeterD

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2009, 11:29:51 am »
Are you saying the high street banks have to pay the mint £1 for each new £1 coin brought into circulation or the Bank of England £10 for each £10 banknote? I don't think so. I don't have any information about the exact mechanism that coins are brought into circulation, but the Bank of England has an interesting description of how banknotes are put into circulation. http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/about/distribution_circulation.htm
As far as I can see, if a bank requires more cash it simply debits the required amount from it's 'electronic' account and takes the same amount in banknotes from a secure store. And the process is reversable  if a bank has too much cash.
Peter, London

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2009, 03:54:49 pm »
Currency (coins and notes) represents a small part of the total money supply that is managed by each country’s reserve bank and they are issued within the overall money supply policy and framework of the country in question.  Currency is not issued gratis, but as I said via loan mechanisms to the banks that result in revenue accruing to treasury. The reserve banks issue annual reports which show the revenue accruing as interest from money market operations. Suffice to say it is considerable, but I have not had the motivation to try and strip out the M0 or M1 component (that is currency component of money supply depending on country) of this revenue.

The exact details of the means by which new/additional currency are injected into the banking system and in what quantity are complex and involve the interaction of open market operations, discount window operations and reserve requirements and best left to others far more competent to explain, so if your interested try these sites to get a feel for what is involved in the various M’s of money supply, how they interact and how they are managed, including the issue of new coin and notes:

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/MoneySupply.html
http://www.ny.frb.org/aboutthefed/fedpoints.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply

As a result, banks do not have an unconstrained ability to draw any amount of currency from the central reserve and the drawing is not free.

Offline PeterD

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2009, 11:17:38 am »
Let's not mix up the higher workings of the economy with the fairly simple movement of coins and banknotes into public circulation.

A sub-page of one of the sites you listed above describes how currency gets into circulation in the US http://www.ny.frb.org/aboutthefed/fedpoint/fed01.html
It seems to be very similar to the way it is organised in the UK. The Main Street bank holds an account at Federal Reserve Bank. When it needs cash, that account is simply debited by the amount of cash taken away. Much the same way as we use an ATM - we withdraw cash and our account is debited.

There is a cost to minting coins and printing banknotes and distributing them and these costs are shared by the banks and the government. But I can't see how any profit is made by the government, which was the suggestion I was trying to refute. Indeed it is in the government's and the banks interest to keep the coins and notes in circulation to a minimum as the more in circulation means less in the banks for investment.
Peter, London

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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2009, 02:55:29 pm »
I don't think it's the face value of a possible counterfeit that concerns the average person (ignoring the few who would love to report a counterfeit to make themselves feel important). What will concern people is whether the market will accept it.

Some years ago, there was a big fuss about counterfeit notes, and people were buying special pens; you drew a line on the note, and if it came out wrong, you knew the note was fake. All the shops were using them, so people were concerned. Nobody cares about £1 coins as they're accepted whether they're genuine or not. I never used to worry about having Scottish notes as shops would accept them. But I was concerned about having Channel Isles currency as they would be rejected, so I had to change them at the bank, for only 90% of the value.
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Offline commodus

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2009, 01:45:00 am »
In the U.S., at least in the part I live in, those damnable pens are still ubiquitous. At some stores the clerks draw a line on every note, even $1 bills (as though counterfeit $1 bills are a big problem!). Typically, it is the $20 and $100 notes that are checked the most (no one seems to use $50s and I have no idea why, like the $2, they are even still produced, but I digress...).
It is very annoying to stand there while all your money is checked and so I bought a counterfeiting pen myself and when they do that I do the same in response, checking all the notes I am given back in change.
Puerile on my part? Yes.
Satisfying? Oh, indescribably so!
Thus far neither they nor I have found any counterfeits among one another's banknotes but we are all still working diligently on it.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: British £1 coin forgeries - 1 in 40 estimate
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2009, 02:26:01 am »
Quote from: commodus on December 07, 2009, 01:45:00 am
.......so I bought a counterfeiting pen myself and when they do that I do the same in response, checking all the notes I am given back in change.
Puerile on my part? Yes.
Satisfying? Oh, indescribably so!
Thus far neither they nor I have found any counterfeits among one another's banknotes but we are all still working diligently on it.

I love it... got to get me one of them pens and have some fun next time I'm in the USA!  ;D

Here in Australia our notes are some sort of polymer plastic composite so this sort of opportunity does not present itself... very boring even if our reserve bank thinks its the height of anti-counterfeit technology. The notes have a plastic feel and the only redeeming feature is that they stand up to laundering (pun intended) very well.  Some of the notes I have carried have been through the wash several times due to my forgetful nature.

 

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