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Author Topic: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?  (Read 3015 times)

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Offline Simon

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Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« on: July 21, 2017, 10:50:15 am »
I got this coin recently. I have just moved and have not been able to photograph it.

19mm

4.0 gm

This coin is not AR that I can tell, it is AE.

Any ideas?

Thank You.

Simon
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2017, 04:24:12 pm »
It seems to me that on the back is written: "Mother of God, help John" ( :Greek_Theta_2: :Greek_Kappa: :Greek_epsilon:  :Greek_Beta: :Greek_Omicron: :Greek_Eta: :Greek_Theta_2: :Greek_epsilon: :Greek_Iota:  :Greek_Iota: :Greek_omega_small: :Greek_Alpha: :Greek_Nu: :Greek_Nu: :Greek_Omicron: :Greek_Upsilon:)

Offline Simon

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2017, 04:39:43 pm »
Thank You Byzantofil!

 Now I need to figure  which John? John I or John II or John III? Its very similar to an Alexius post reform coin but its more than likely  a token so style might not be as telling.

Any  and all opinions are appreciated.


Simon

 
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2017, 08:29:29 pm »
Judging by style, this is not John III, definitely.
Looks like a token or experimental tetarteron (rather large).

Offline Simon

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2017, 04:03:27 am »
Interesting. Alexius did have a silver coin with the same style of design but that was before the coin reform and of course before the ae and billion tetartera.

If it was a tetartera , the weight would be fine. Many of the Constantinople issue are around that weight.  Their is one coin that is semi rare that utilized a Virgin obverse However it is an Alexius coin that I have always speculated it was created early in the coin reform because most are blatantly struck over earlier follis. SBCV-1930 ( Example #1 bellow is my only one that is not showing signs of an overstrike.)

The Billion Tetarteron SBCV-1946 is a Tetarteron from John II's  rule. ( example #2)

I am not seeing a connection between the three coins.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2017, 11:20:38 am »
The inscription on the reverse had three lines, it's a pity not to see the third. She could have clarified a lot. In general, the design resembles a seal, but, as I understand it, it's not lead.

Offline Simon

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2017, 01:56:07 pm »
No it is not lead and it is not a seal. I at one point was questioning if it was a low quality billion, however from appearance alone that is inconclusive.

Simon
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 03:18:32 pm »
Do you remember the two copper proofs for Romanus Lekapenus miliarission, that have not been minted in silver? One copy in the British Museum, another in the State Hermitage Museum, St. Petersburg. Maybe this your copper - just also a trial tetaterion proof (unapproved variant)?

Offline Simon

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 07:05:21 pm »
Do you remember the two copper proofs for Romanus Lekapenus miliarission, that have not been minted in silver? One copy in the British Museum, another in the State Hermitage Museum, St. Petersburg. Maybe this your copper - just also a trial tetaterion proof (unapproved variant)?

I hear what your saying but my intuition is telling me no. At least for John II. It would only fit as some sort of token, but was the partial inscription to be taken as a general prayer for him or was it in to response to him becoming sole ruler after his fathers death or perhaps on his deathbed ( he took a  few days to die.)

Also I am not as familiar with the coinage  or the rule of John I, would it be a better fit there?

Simon

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2017, 02:30:03 pm »
John I put into circulation an anonymous type of follis class A1 and the golden tetateron. But there is nothing stylistically similar to your token among his coins. But in style, your token, I think, is closer to the era of the Komneni.

Offline Simon

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2017, 09:51:38 am »
With a solo example anything is possible. Thank you for putting thought into this Byzantofil, its appreciated. I am traveling right now, I will be home late next week with a brand new macro lens for my camera waiting for me. Lets see if I can get you a better picture.

I am still thinking token but I can see possibilities as it being a coin.

Simon
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2017, 08:38:20 am »
Brand new Macro lens , my first photos with it. A better picture of the subject.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline VesPant

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2020, 03:24:12 pm »
Why not a unknown(!) tetarteron of John Comnenus-Ducas (Thessalonica).  He have similar half-tetarteron (with inscription)
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Offline Simon

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2020, 03:35:09 pm »
What is the reference  for the half tetarteron? I just checked Doc did not see it.

Thanks,

Simon
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline VesPant

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2020, 03:53:13 pm »
Sear 2224.         DO vol.4 p.587  #13.1   13.2
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Offline Simon

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2020, 04:12:34 pm »
I have the coin you are referring to. It is an interesting coin but I cannot see them being related. The unknown coin is much more similar to a pre reform coin of Alexius DOC AR 11.

Here is my example of the John Comnenus- Ducas SBCV 2224
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline VesPant

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2020, 04:29:02 pm »
I think prereform AE coins (follis) are bigger.
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Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2020, 04:48:01 pm »
Have you noticed that the font used to inscribe on the Simon's coin is very stylistically close to XI century miliaresions and tetarteron's exagias?

Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2020, 04:51:58 pm »
I gave these examples in order that the type of font allows you to date a coin at an earlier time than John III

Offline Simon

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2020, 11:08:00 pm »
I do agree it is earlier. I tend to favor John II, his saint was Mary, the protector of the city was Mary. I think she was chosen because she was a Saint that was also very much respected in the Muslim faith.

As for the coin, until another shows itself , hopefully with a full legend it will remain a mystery to the John it is referring to. I did send the image to Dumbarton Oakes last year but no response from the museum.

It might be a billion coin but it would have been a very low quantity of silver.

I appreciate people keeping this thread alive because I would love to know what it is.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Simon

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2021, 04:00:45 pm »
Still trying to figure this out. Anyone have anything new?

Thanks,

Simon
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Gert

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2021, 08:35:57 am »
I think this is not a coin, but a bronze tessera of a private individual. As you already discussed, the legend reads "Theotoke boethei to so doulo" and there is an abbreviation bar which likely abbreviates IW for John or KWN for Konstantinos.  These tesserae usually date to the 10th and 11th centuries. They're rare but examples are published in several seal references. They usually name officials, but also monasteries. Cf. for one of these bronze tesserae: https://www.doaks.org/resources/seals/byzantine-seals/BZS.1951.31.5.2962/view
Regards
Gert

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2021, 05:33:07 pm »
Thank You Gert, I appreciate your insight.

I shared the coin and received a similar answer. I was unfamiliar with seals that were not lead, I ran in to the basic article. It was very informative and I am better off for reading it.


https://www.academia.edu/5526389/Byzantine_seals_introduction


As for the coin in question an interesting seal with a similar inscription came to light in DO. A member of  another board made me aware of this piece.

https://www.doaks.org/resources/seals/byzantine-seals/BZS.1951.31.5.2516

Simon


https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Gert

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Re: Need some Help with this please. Alexius?
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2021, 03:22:09 am »
That article is an excellent introduction to the subject.

That precise parallel seal does not tell you very much, I think. If you browse through the DO online database, you will find a lot of seals that look almost exactly like your piece. It has an early to middle 11th century style, and the legend is the regular invocation. Both John and Constantine (which I think is still a possible reading) are common names. In the the last line(s) would have had an office or a dignity.

John Nesbitt wrote an article on these tokens, which he thought were associated to charity: Nesbitt, J. W. “Byzantine Copper Tokens.” Studies in Byzantine Sigillography 1 (1987). He mentions 'cancelation marks' (piercing) and it looks like there's a mark on your coin as well above the Mother of God.
Regards
Gert




 

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