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The Members' Gallery => Topic started by: Enodia on February 22, 2012, 03:53:50 pm
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Greetings all,
With 15 coins from Taras now in my collection I've decided it was time to start a separate thread, so my Taras gallery can be found here...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3132
This one is my latest addition, a confusing little fraction which I've finally decided is a hemilitra. the dual standard system used at Taras makes attribution difficult at times, and the change in weights through the course of its' history confuses the issue even more. But all the information I've been able to glean suggests that this is the proper denomination.
~ Peter
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this also arrived today...
Taras: Its History and Coinage, by George C. Brauer.
i'm in the middle of a Sharpe novel at the moment so it'll be a day or two before i can really dive into this, but as soon as the musket smoke clears... :)
~ Peter
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Taras: Its History and Coinage, by George C. Brauer.
i finished this last week, and found it to be an informative and enjoyable read. there were a few things i didn't know at all, but the real value to me was the way it provided a continuity to all the internet factoids i have been able to accumulate. seeing these details fit into an historical flow was priceless to me. in addition, each chapter ends with a discussion of the coins of that period.
i recommend this book for any enthusiast of the coinage of Magna Graecia, and especially of Taras (of course).
on a similar note i am currently in the middle of Harold Lamb's Hannibal (1958).
while ostensibly a work of historical fiction, this book reads more like a commentary with a few fictional dialogues thrown in to tie up the loose ends. very readable and informative if you are a fan of The Scourge of Rome, but more topical for me is the way it delved into Hannibal's relationship with the Greeks of southern Italy, and that brings us back to Taras once again. very complimentary as a follow-up to the above book, but recommended on it's own right too.
however i am still not entirely sated, so i am still on the prowl for another good history of Taras.
the (re)search continues...
~ Peter
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Very nice gallery, I especially like the Sicilian bronzes!
Nick
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thanks Nick, i appreciate that.
i just added the Artemis Soteira, my fist Sicilian in 20 years!
~ Peter
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no new coin to announce (more's the pity :( ), but i did just make a major addition to my collection.
after an almost endless search i finally was able to get an original printing of the 'Descriptive Catalog of The Collection of Tarentine Coins formed by M.P. Vlasto', by Oscar Ravel (1947). this is something i have wanted for some time, but i couldn't find one anywhere at any price!
this one came to me from Australia and very reasonably priced (although i still had to borrow the money from a friend), so i am very happy to finally add it to my library.
so now if any new Tarentine coins ever show up in the catalog here then i can finally add a coin too. :)
~ Peter
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still no new coins to add, but the remodel continues as i re-list my old coins with new photos.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3132
today i uploaded 4 didrachms and my only plate coin, a little obol with a kantharos on each side. it was really cool to look in my new Vlasto catalog and see my own coin right there on a plate from 1947! :)
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-82069
~ Peter
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This is a wonderful and inspiring collection.
Thank you for sharing it,
AC
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thank you very much Augustin! it is a labor of love.
i have finally, after encountering quite a few obstacles, been able to add a new Tarentine coin to my favorite collection. i don't have it in hand yet (hopefully soon!), but this will be the rarest coin in my collection so far.
stay tuned! 8)
~ Peter
and oh yeah... GO GIANTS!!! :)
(sorry Chris!)
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well it took almost a month, but my new drachm is finally here! it looks nicer in hand of course, but you can check it out here...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-89379
this is a rarity with the owl facing left. of the 60 some-odd varieties of Tarentine drachms, only two depict the owl standing left, with the other showing Athena left. i have only found one other specimen sold within the past 10+ years, so i was glad to snatch this one up!
anyway, i found it an interesting piece, and i hope you do too.
~ Peter
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this is truelly a coin to behold and one that would grace the premier position in anyones collection
you are very lucky to have it and must be so thrilled
i love all owls and have looked at many but i never knew such a coin existed WELL SNAPPED +++ +++
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thank you Helen.
i have found another example from CNA XV, lot 13 (1991), not the same coin but possibly from the same dies.
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Dear Peter,
my compliments, great acquisition!
I made a little research in my personal library for you, about the issue "owl standing left" on tarentine drachm...
First, the books without left owls:
SNG ANS -
SNG Christomanos -
SNG Delepierre -
SNG Dreer -
SNG Hart -
SNG Evelpidis -
SNG Fabricius -
SNG Gale -
SNG Lewis -
SNG Lloyd -
SNG Manchester -
SNG Milano -
SNG Newcastle
SNG Sweden I -
SNG Tubingen -
Norman Davis Collection -
ANS Dewing -
ANS Wulfing -
ANS Wheaton -
Gulbenkian Collection -
Frankfurt Museum; Forschner -
Pozzi Collection -
Now, the left owls...
The two we just know..
Vlasto 1065; 3,17g (Athena right)
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/Vlasto1065.jpg)
Vlasto 1101; 3,22g (Athena left)
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/Vlasto1101.jpg)
and some others...
SNG Munchen 714; 3,06g (Athena left)
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/SNGMun714.jpg)
SNG Hungary 125; 3,02g (Athena left)
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/SNGHun125.jpg)
SNG Cop 965; 2,96g (Athena left)
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/SNGCop965.jpg)
SNG Ashmolean 454; 2,79g (Athena left)
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/SNGAsh454.jpg)
SNG France 1950; 2,84g (Athena left)
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/SNGBnF1950.jpg)
SNG France 1947; 3,01g (Athena right)
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/SNGBnF1947.jpg)
Another specimen from the web.. 3,2g (Athena right) Vauctions sale 273 lot 13
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/images/Vauctions-273-13.JPG)
Some conclusions...
I think the reverse dies for the type with Athena right and the other with Athena left are different.
The Athena right type is really very very rare!!!!
Enjoy it Peter, I'm very happy for you, your collection is becoming more and more unique and interesting.
Bye :)
Nicola
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thank you Taras! very thorough information, as usual. :)
yes, obviously not the same reverse dies. i remember the racing torch now that you've posted it here, and it is a different artistic treatment entirely.
and you're right, it does seem that 1101 is more common than 1065... cool!
i believe the SNG France specimen may be the one sold at CNA back in '91, at least i recall that one being similarly off-centered. that and the VAuctions example are the only other ones i've seen offered.
i'm very glad i didn't put off buying this one, and thank you to our friend Lars for jumping through so many hoops to get it to me!
~ Peter
ETA;
nope, the CNA specimen is not the same as the SNG France plate coin, so there's five of them anyway, including the Vlasto/Evans piece.
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i've been revamping my Taras gallery yet again, so have a look if you please...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3132
i do have something very modest and very tiny coming soon. in fact it will be the smallest coin in my collection. low grade but scarce, and pedigreed to boot!
stay tuned...
~ Peter
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my new Tarentine fraction arrived today, and it sure is tiny. less than 1/4 gram, if i put it in my palm and blew it would just fly away!
it is low grade, but does look slightly better than the photo. but this well traveled little piece of silver seemed so lonely that i just had to rescue it. it is from the Colin E. Pitchfork collection, but has been around a bit since he liquidated his collection a couple of years back. it has been a part of two different lots, as well as having been listed by two different fixed-price dealers since 2009. it finally ended up priced at an almost bargain bin amount, the numismatic version of a bottle of Muscatel in a damp alley somewhere. i had to intervene.
so yes, it ain't pretty, but it comes from a good family. please be kind...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-89781
i have another piece in the pipe which is a bit more spectacular, so check back soon!
~ Peter
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Amazingly small! Peter you need a macro lens! The pic doesn't do it justice!
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Amazingly small! Peter you need a macro lens! The pic doesn't do it justice!
well, it almost does. ;)
right now i am anxiously awaiting my first new Tarentine didrachm in nearly two years. it is from an earlier period than any of my others, but i mainly like it because the engraver's initial is the same as on my Metapontum didrachm.
can't wait to post it here!
~ Peter
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Finally here!
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-90498
i really like the coin overall, the condition, and depiction and all. but as i said it was the signatures which drew me to it and the obverse signature of this coin...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-40493
and i think it speaks to that period rather well, being in general artistically superior to the similar coins of the following century.
~ Peter
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A lovely coin, well executed and worthy of the engraver's signatures! Nice connection to your other coin!
Congrats!
Steve
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A beautiful coin.
Ann Johnston put forward a very well constructed and convincing argument that these are not engravers' signatures, but rather magistrates' names.
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Enodia - I just had the opportunity to look at your gallery and it is a very well organized and nice collections. Well done!
Carthago
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Great coin Peter! I'm happy for you :)
A little curiosity about the symbol on the reverse... François Lenormant in his travel report "La Grande Grèce", written between 1881 and 1884 described the piles of murex shells that in those years were still visible in Taranto, in the "site of Fontanelle", where in ancient times worked the tarentine craftsmen producing purple cloth.
Bye friend
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thank you both!
and Taras, you never fail to add those interesting little details which bring so much life to the hobby, thank you for that!
i had thought that the previous didrachm was to be my last coin of the year, but thanks to the thoughtful kindness of a dear friend i am able to add this little gem to my gallery...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-90804
this is an important addition to my Taras collection. these early fractions can be pretty scarce and quite interesting as they represent a sort of transitional stage for Tarentine coinage, and i've been wanting one for some time.
the head on the reverse is often described as the nymph Satyra, who was the mother of Taras. however Vlasto describes the bust as Taras himself, and since i have yet to find one which is definitively female in appearence i'm going with that attribution. it must be admitted though that the similar image on the larger didrachms of the period could be seen as Satyra.
this coin is so much lovlier than this poor scan shows, but my digital skills are still rather raw. i don't do too badly in natural sunlight, but we haven't seen any of that here in Oregon for three weeks at least. hence, the scan.
~ Peter
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Taras, you never fail to add those interesting little details which bring so much life to the hobby, thank you for that!
Thank you very much Peter, it's a pleasure for me, and I love to be part of this learned community.
the head on the reverse is often described as the nymph Satyra, who was the mother of Taras. however Vlasto describes the bust as Taras himself, and since i have yet to find one which is definitively female in appearence i'm going with that attribution. it must be admitted though that the similar image on the larger didrachms of the period could be seen as Satyra.
I agree with you, the head could be of Taras, and I'm not sure that "the similar image on the larger didrachms of the period could be seen as Satyra", at least not always.
I post the pics of two nomos from the same period (first half of the V b.C.)...
Looking at the first one (New York Sale VII lot 1) it seems that the head on reverse is very similar to the head of the male character on dolphin, at least in the hair style.
In the second one (NAC 52 lot 6) the head on the reverse is very ambiguous, and the presence of the taenia in the hair does not allow us to define it as a female head with certainty, because males also used it.
I think it is not easy to solve the issue, also considering that often in archaic Greece the mythical sons of gods were depicted as androgynous beings.
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I agree with you, the head could be of Taras, and I'm not sure that "the similar image on the larger didrachms of the period could be seen as Satyra", at least not always.
i agree with your "at least not always" comment. in going through my files i have found this didrachm type with portraits distinctly 'masculine' while others are far, far more feminine looking. as i said in my description... "Effeminate perhaps, but Apollo and Dionysus have both taught us that lesson."
~ Peter
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hello all,
today i'm happy to add the 20th coin to my Taras collection! i didn't start out to specialize in this area, but it has definitely evolved that way and i'm happy with the results so far. :)
my latest addition is this weird little diobol...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-92394
i liked this one for the unadorned helmet, unusual on these, but also for the long ethnic. in fact it is this ethnic which really piqued my curiousity.
Vlasto lists this under the period 302-228 BC, but i think it is later. TAPANTIN suggests to me that this coin was struck after the introduction of a Roman garrison at Taras after the Pyrrhic Hegemony, ie after 271. prior to this the ethnic had always been TAPAΣ, but Rome refered to the city as Tarentum.
have a look, and feel free to browse around...
~ Peter
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i just uploaded a new photo of a coin i received for Christmas. the old scan was really bad, so i think this is much better. hope so anyway...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-92776
thanks for looking,
~ Peter
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A much better photo! I have been coveting the one in Forvm shop. ;D
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thank you Robin.
i've added a new diobol, this one from the Colin Pitchfork collection, and i really like this coin! :)
Athena Left, wearing a Corinthian helmet decorated with a griffin.
Herakles standing left, wrestling the Nemean lion.
i think the dies are quite fine for this issue, and the odd flan shape complies perfectly to the lines of the design (i do wish the reverse was centered a bit better though).
this reverse is unusual in that Herakles is standing facing left, a rarity in Tarentine coinage, although there is a beautiful type struck in gold. combined with Athena left and the much less common Corinthian helmet, this was one i just couldn't pass up. i hope you like it too...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-95153
~ Peter
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A rare and amazing diobol.
Great acquisition, for a great collection.
Congratulations Peter!
:)
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thank you Taras! :)
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i just added my latest diobol which i was lucky enough to get at a recent auction for the minimum bid.
this one is yet another depicting Herakles fighting the Nemean lion, but at this point in the battle the Hero has begun to subdue the beast and is kneeling on his back about to deliver a crushing blow with his club.
the seemingly endless variations on this theme throughout the ancient world continue to fascinate me, particularly on these Tarentine coins.
AR Diobol
380-334 BC
Helmeted head of Athena left, wearing Attic helmet decorated with Skylla. / Herakles, holding club overhead, kneeling left on the back of the Nemean lion; [TAPAN](?) to left, Θ above lion’s head, cornucopia to right.
the control devices on this specimen are not listed in Vlasto or Cote or any of the other resources i have found, so a precise attribution is beyond me at this time. however i'd say it is fair to say that this type is less common than the typical Herakles/lion diobols, and this variety can be called scarce.
so have a look and feel free to leave a comment...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-95661
thanks,
~ Peter
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Congratulations on the nice find! An excellent depiction of Herakles.
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Congratulations on the nice find! An excellent depiction of Herakles.
thank you Matt. :)
i did a little more research and actually found this variety in Vlasto. it is from a slightly later period than i had it listed as before, but that makes more sense actually.
~ Peter
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i haven't added anything new to my Taras gallery lately, so i will right now. 8)
this is a silver drachm of the 'owl right, wings folded' variety which i was lacking until a friend found this lovely Athena...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-100076
i like it, and i hope you do too,
~ Peter
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Peter
It is really nice ..
+++
Q.
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thanks Q. :)
my latest aquisition is a 1/4 Litra piece from Taras. it is part of a group of unusual fractions which do not contain any of the typical Tarentine devices (ie; horse, dolphin rider, shell, etc).
oddly enough a number of these hard to find types have been offered lately, and all at the same time of course. i bid on two different specimens but came up short, so i bought this one as a consolation prize.
i have only seen one other offered for sale within the past ten years or more, and that from Vlasto's own collection. that one was no nicer than mine though, imo.
this is not a very sexy addition, but it does represent an important addition to the collection and i'm very happy to have it.
so have a look, and feel free to leave a comment if you like...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-100431
~ Peter
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hello all!
today i am adding a much more traditional looking fraction from Taras, complete with all the usual devices. i received this coin as an early birthday present, and while it is not generally considered 'scarce', it is difficult to find one for sale.
i am very happy to have it! :)
attributing it to a specific denomination is difficult though, as the Tarentine dual standard confuses the issue. Vlasto lists it under the heading 'Litrae, Half-Litrae and Other Denominations', but by actual weight it is closer to an obol.
AR Litra (9mm, 0.52g)
281-235 BC
Scallop shell. / Dolphin rider left.
have a look...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-102091
~ Peter
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i decided to indulge myself a little and bought myself a birthday present from here at Forvm...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-102395
this is yet another Tarentine fraction, not too sexy nor particularly rare, but i liked it and didn't have one similar, so... 8)
AR Litra
(10mm, 0.57g)
325-281 BC
Scallop shell. / Dolphin right; bunch of grapes and I below.
take a look and enjoy!
~ Peter
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another fraction from Taras, this one an auction aquisition...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-102888
this is another Herakles/Nemean lion type, but with a scarcer control symbol (owl).
AR Diobol
302-228 BC
O: Head of Athena right, wearing plain crested Attic helmet.
R: Herakles standing right, strangling the Nemean lion; club behind, owl with spread wings between legs.
i hope you like it,
~ Peter
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nothing new to add today unfortunately, but i do want to continue a discussion from page 1 of this thread regarding left-facing owls on Tarentine drachms.
earlier we had identified two types with left-facing owls, Vlasto 1065 with the right-facing Athena and Vlasto 1101 with both Athena and the owl facing left. both of these depict owls with closed wings.
but when a 1101 appeared recently at auction i went to add it to my Taras database and found that i already had another one listed from a much earlier auction, but this one with wings spread (see below). it was listed as Vlasto 1101, but is obviously different.
now i'm wondering if this coin is an unlisted variety or a mistake by the auction house.
curiously,
~ Peter
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hey Nico, thanks for replying. :)
from my files;
Circa 302-272 BC
AR Drachm (3.78g)
Head of Athena left, wearing Attic helmet decorated with Skylla.
Owl with open wings standing left on thunderbolt; ΣΩ to left.
Vlasto 1101; SNG Cop 965v. VF, rare.
i actually think this would be of a slightly later date along with all the other open-winged owls, although the weight seems a bit high.
but who knows?
~ Peter
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I spent some hours on this issue.
This coin is not listed on the main SNG catalogues and neither on Ravel-Vlasto, but it is not unpublished. The reference is Garrucci XCIX.13
In 1885 Garrucci ("Le monete dell'Italia antica, Raccolta generale.") published a description and a drawing of the coin. He did not specify the weight, or some provenance, or museum collocation. However the coin is clearly the one you posted Peter.
Some thoughts... the reverse shows the name of the magistrate :Greek_Upsilon: :Greek_Nu: :Greek_Upsilon_2: :Greek_Alpha: :Greek_Nu: :Greek_Iota: :Greek_Omega: , and the engraver initials :GreeK_Sigma: :Greek_Omega: ... the engraver is well known for his signature (Sometimes :GreeK_Sigma: :Greek_Omega: :GreeK_Sigma:) on other drachms with the common open wings owl standing right. The magistrate name is new, not even reported by G. L. Mangieri (2012), who listed 40 magistrate names on tarentine coins.
The weight, as you noted, is a bit high, and looking at the plate from Garrucci it seems that also the size is larger than other drachms. A real enigma to me!!
A final meditation... modern scholars have often accused Garrucci to have invented some coins he drew, because they never found corresponding specimens. Well, this case shows that perhaps Garrucci was a careful and painstaking compiler, and not an imaginative inventor of types. And now I wonder if will ever come to light another otherwise unlisted drachm he drew, with the same rev type, magistrate name and engraver signature, but an obverse type totally different from the usual head of Athena, see the attached pic, Garrucci XCIX.12.
However, Numismatics will never cease to intrigue me, there will always be something new to discover.
Peter, thank you very much for your acute observations, without which I might not have ever known this rare tarentine coin.
All the best :)
Nico
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thank YOU man. that is really great research in such a short time... bravo!
i am unfamiliar with Garucci, but thank him too when you see him. ;)
i had assumed that the incription was a magistrate, which fits in well with the open-winged types, as you said. i nearly went blind trying to make it into the ethnic.
the flan looks full, but no diameter was listed. the weight is about 10% higher than i might expect from even a beefy a Tarentine drachm, but the large flan might explain that. still it does seem strange for a later date coin to be so high.
the coin went for more than i was able to pay, so i'm thankful for that. i'd hate to think i missed out on something so important which i might have afforded! this does mean that my left-facing owl collection just became quite a bit harder. :(
an interesting piece regardless.
thanks again Nico,
~ Peter
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today i'm showing off my new Tarentine didrachm, the oldest one in my collection...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-105011
i had planned to explain how these are hard to find, and how they rarely turn up in nice condition and are not at all affordable (by me at least) when they do. that was before the latest auction by a well known auction house in which no less than four similar coins are offered.
oh well.
but these are difficult to find in higher grades and must have circulated for a very long time, much like the didrachms of Campania. i do wish it was nicer, but i have been wanting one for some time and i'm happy to have finally gotten this one.
this series of didrachms are refered to as 'Oekist types', due to the appearance of the city founder seated on the reverse. much debate has arisen over this figure, with earlier attributions claiming the seated figure as Demos. my description goes into this in slightly more detail. but perhaps more important to the Tarentine timeline, these are the last coins issued without the ubiquitous horseman for which the city became famous.
it also seems strange to find the dolphin rider on the obverse, and this one looks like he's on his way to a Detroit Red Wings game. 8)
i hope you all like it,
~ Peter
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Rare and nice, and for sure hard to find.
Sam
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Great acquisition buddy, congrats!
A note on iconography:
Rutter already raised doubts in 1997 about the identification of the seated figure with the Oekist. He speculated about Dionysos, as a deity with powers over animal instincts and underworld (i attach the scan).
The most recent theories by Italian scholars, reported during the Congress of Bari in 2010, tend to reject the "Oekist" hypothesis, based on no iconographic evidence. The only known certain representations of Oekists on coins in south Italy are helmeted heads, not seated figures.
Probably the seated figure on Tarentine coins is to be intended as one of the personifications of Apollo or Dionysos, issue to be deepen.
Here some food for thought:
http://www.magnagraecia.nl/coins/Bruttium_map/Rhegion_map/descrRheANS_751.html
http://www.magnagraecia.nl/coins/Calabria_map/Neretum_map/descrNeretum_AE19.html
P.S.
The same goes for Rhegion, where the seated figure has been recently identified as a deity (most likely Aesculapius or Dionysos), not the oekist Iokastos.
http://www.magnagraecia.nl/coins/Bruttium_map/Rhegion_map/descrRheH_001.html
P.P.S. The strong symbolic religious significance of the diphros (the chair) also emerges from this rare tarentine fractional (the object on reverse is not a distaff or a spindle, as uncritically reported by almost all catalogs, Rutter speculated about a sound-producing instrument, but I am convinced, in agreement with the L.I.N. project scholars, that it is a skewer of meat, which refers to sacrificial cult practices):
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=114157
Best :)
Nico
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Greetings Taras, and thank you for the detailed research.
I considered a number of possibilties before landing on Taras. Some early accounts make the seated figure the personification of democracy, along with the similar figure appearing on contemporary coins of Rhegion. These coins were issued about the same time as the political change in both cities, and undoubtedly both did strike coins to commemorate the event. However those coins are bordered with wreaths, and this coin obviously isn't.
Dionysus was another possibility and I admit I have not yet completely rejected the idea, although I am not as confident in this conclusion. But this specimen shows none of the attributes of the chthonic deity, ie distaff, kantharos, etc. Since the city of Taras was not shy about showing these items I have concluded that it was not their intention to depict Dionysus here. I am still open to further evidence though.
But the Deified Hero cult was prominent at Taras, and this passage from Brauer convinced me...
"... A cult of the heroized dead was particularly important to the religious life of the city; in some respects it was part of Taras' Spartan heritage. On Spartan sepulchral reliefs, the heroized dead frequently held out a cantharos. Together with veneration of the heroized dead in general, there flourished in many Greek cities the worship of the semidivine hero who had died, such as Lycurus of Sparta or Theseus of Athens.According to a local myth, Taras had ruled many years over the pre-Greek city until, in the midst of a sacrifice to his father Poseidon, he fell into the river Taras and drowned. Since the citizens could not find his body, they assumed that he had gone to join his father and started worshipping him as a hero to whom divine honors should be paid (Herodotus). If the seated figure on the coins was intended by his engravers as Taras, he was therefore Taras the heroized and deified dead, the object of religious ceremonies in the state. Although he occasionally sits on klismos, a graceful chair with curved back and legs, his usual seat is a diphros or stool, traditionally assigned to the gods and the heroized dead in Greek art.”
It is true that none of this excludes Dionysus, but it certainly does make a case for the oekist, imo.
In fact Brauer goes on to say…
“Aside from the cantharos and the diphros, other attributes that occur with the seated figure also suggest his chthonic or underworld nature. He is sometimes shown playing with or feeding a panther, associated at Taras with departed heroes. Sometimes he holds a dove, symbol of the soul.”
How that helps us here I am not quite sure, since these symbols are common to both theories. It is interesting to note that none of these chthonic symbols appear on this coin (one of the last in the series, btw). However Vlasto tells us that the seated figure on my coin is holding a lekythos in his left hand. Looking at it under a glass I might be seeing a lekythos handle, or it might just be the ornate leg of the diphros. But it is interesting that the lekythos was often used as a funerary device.
I am not convinced that the distaff is meant to represent an iynx, or bull-roarer (often fashioned as birds or other animals). Professor Sarah Iles Johnston goes into this subject in her book 'Hekate Soteira: A Study of Hekate's Roles in the Chaldean Oracles and Related Literature', highly recommended reading.
So yes, this may be Dionysus, but it is unusual to find a depiction of a deity without some identifying icon, and since we do not see the distaff or the cup on this specimen, or anything else to signify the god Himself, I remain doubtful.
Could the one series have included multiple principles? Possibly, as we see that some earlier issues apparently depict Democracy while others do not. So perhaps we are seeing both Taras AND Dionysus on different issues? This would not be unprecented, as we have seen Taras, Phalanthos, Iacchus and Poseidon all depicted as dolphin riders.
I am most interested in hearing any further thoughts you may have.
And thank you again,
~ Peter
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Good write Peter!
I think that the subject of the identification of deities on ancient greek iconography is really very complex, and you have rightly added complexity to the issue we are discussing.
Sometimes I wonder if (before the Hellenistic period) they really existed Greek gods clearly identifiable, or rather a sort of divine gradient in which the representations of the divinity could fade from one to the other deity, according to ascribed symbolic meaning, and the different cultural influences of the places where they worshiped.
In our case, there is a connection between Dionysus and the "boy on dolphin" (depicted on the other side of the coin) in greek mithology, with phoenician influences.... I am refeerring to the myth of Melicertes/Palaimon: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Palaimon.html.
Could this connection give more substance to the Dionysus hypothesis? But, again, who is the boy on dolphin? It seems that the name Melicertes was derived from Melkart, a Phoenician deity, whose attribute was the seahorse, depicted so many times on the shield of the boy on dolphin!
There is enough material to get a monumental headache!!
I conclude by translating a write of B. Carroccio, which gives us the sense that we have to tolerate much uncertainty when studying these topics:
" ... For these fluctuations of attributions, or polysemy of meanings, it must always be remembered that our difficulties to give a definition, beyond any possible modern misunderstanding, also stem from the substantial "untranslatability" of many ancient cults within the limited number of names of deities maintained by the cultural koine in which the later selections and simplifications wanted them homologated. It is therefore possible that many different "Apollon" existed, away from our modern idea of the god, with different names even in the same city."
Bye friend, it is always a pleasure to discuss with you :)
Nico
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two new Tarentine coins to add today. they are in fact the 29th and 30th coins from this city in my collection. since i separated this thread out from from my regular gallery thread at 15 coins, i thought this represented a sort of landmark.
anyway...
the first is a weird little fraction, with 'little' being the key word. this is now the smallest coin in my collection, coming in at a whopping 0.16g!...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-106877
this is another of the five or six types which seem atypical for Taras, but are fascinating none-the-less.
the next, number 30, is from right here at Forvm. it is another fraction, ridiculously small, and yet almost three times bigger than the previous coin! this one is a silver trimorion, or 3/4 obol, and is the second of the type in my collection (the other having the horse's heads facing differently)...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-106878
i didn't start out to collect Tarentine coins specifically, but it seems to have turned out that way. it has been an interesting ride for me though, and i already can't wait for my 50th coin post!
i hope you like them too.
~ Peter
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Always enjoy your coins Peter...these ones are tiny!
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thanks Jay! :)
yeah they really are small. i've seen paint chips which were thicker than that cresent coin!
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greetings all!
i haven't added any coins to my collection in quite some time, but today i present one of the two coins i got for my birthday.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-113125
this one is a peculier coin from Taras, struck during Hannibal's occupation of the city from 212-209 BC. at this time the Tarentine mint had not produced any coins for 15 years or so, having been shut down by the Romans circa 228. but upon entering the city in 213-212 Hannibal reopened the mint and began to strike silver coins once again, although on the smaller Punic standard and of greatly debased artistic style.
these 'half shekels' never exceeded 4 grams, nearly half the weight of the earlier didrachms. in fact Sear refers to these coins as drachms, although no drachms struck at Taras ever resembled these types. the fact that the old didrachm type was chosen suggests two things to me. the first and most likely is that the horseman/dolphin rider imagery was intended to inspire confidence in the new reduced types. the second is my own personal hope that this was somehow Hannibal's way of giving Rome the 'one-fingered salute'.
:)
whatever the cause, the coins of this period represent the final emissions of this formerly prolific city, and it is too bad that they failed to do justice to the once beautiful pieces struck by Italy's greatest Greek polis.
in any case, while not particularly rare these coins of the Punic occupation are an important addition to any serious collection of Tarentine coins, and i'm certainly glad to have this one in mine.
i hope you agree.
~ Peter
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Thanks for that background, Peter. Very interesting issue. The surfaces of your coin give the appearance of over-striking (or perhaps the lighting is just accentuating irregular surfaces). Is your coin over-struck and are these half - shekels commonly over-struck?
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Hi Peter,
Congratulations for this new acquisition, and thank you very much for your interesting (as usual) writing. +++
P.S. I would not consider the "Messapian" hypothesis as reliable.... Sokannas is a semitic name, and the symbols of the lemniscate palm and eagle tell us about a war situation in which the attributes of power and victory were crucial for political propaganda, so IMHO the coin was undoubtedly minted in Taras during the punic occupation.
Best :)
Nico
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... I would not consider the "Messapian" hypothesis as reliable.... Sokannas is a semitic name, and the symbols of the lemniscate palm and eagle tell us about a war situation in which the attributes of power and victory were crucial for political propaganda, so IMHO the coin was undoubtedly minted in Taras during the punic occupation.
hi Taras, and thank you for the comment! :)
yes, Sokannos is definitely a Semetic name, but even further i cannot imagine such a position being entrusted to a people whose mercenary relationship was at best tenuous. a marriage of convenience more than one of faith, imo. "The enemy of my enemy" seems the more likely basis of any agreement with the indigenous peoples.
political propoganda is an important observation too, and striling an entirely new coinage based on the old designs may very well have been an attempt to renew a civic pride which had greatly dissolved in Taras at this point in time. pro- and anti- Roman factions were dividing the populace and anything to unify the power structure behind him would absolutely be to Hannibal's advantage. the subterfuge and intrigues which allowed him to enter the city in the first place are a testiment to the tensions of the day.
Carausius, i honestly don't know of any overstrikes from this period, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. it was, as discussed above, a time of war, so any flan in a storm?
when i first saw the coin at auction i thought the marks were scratches, and the description of "removed from jewelry" lent credence to this. however in hand the marks are definitely raised, so the possibilty of an overstrike certainly exists. in fact 'upon further review' i think i can imagine the image of a little man in the field at 5:00 reminiscent of the standing Apollo from Kaulonia. but it could also be nothing but my bad eyes creating something logical out of nothing more than a slightly damaged die.
does anyone else see this? i am curious now.
~ Peter
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i think i can imagine the image of a little man in the field at 5:00 reminiscent of the standing Apollo from Kaulonia. but it could also be nothing but my bad eyes creating something logical out of nothing more than a slightly damaged die.
does anyone else see this? i am curious now.
~ Peter
Peter, I think this is impossible, Kaulonia never minted ar coins on this weight standard. For the Achaean standard a drachm was a third-stater, and a stater was 8 g.
Bye ;)
Nico
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sorry Nico, i must not have made myself clear.
i wasn't identifying the undertype (if there is one) as being from Kaulonia, just that the funny shape at that position reminds me of that figure of Apollo. for that matter it also looks like a tiny Athena Promachus, or perhaps Ajax, or none of the above. keep in mind that i am having eye surgery next month, so what i think i see is definitely subject to scrutiny.
~ Peter 8)
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Oh I did not understand, sorry Peter.
In fact those lines and reliefs can give everyone the illusion of recognizable forms, making us think of erased secondary symbols or even some undertype, but IMO those undefined signs tell us of an hasty and inaccurate engraving of dies, or maybe some problems with the production of blanks, in fact we find those features on many specimens for the type, as you can see in the attached images.
Good luck with the surgery my friend, your eyes are still smart, and after I am sure they will be even more ;)
All the best :)
Nico
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thank you Nico, for your well wishes and even moreso for your information. i am glad to see these similar examples. i would not have had a problem with it being an overstrike, but this is a much more satisfying solution.
there have been other similar discussions (but not quite the same) regarding the strange flow lines found on Tarentine didrachms, and this can perhaps be filed with them.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=58276.0
however the question remains, what causes these anomalies?
~ Peter
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I think in this case we are not looking to a problem occurred in phase of minting (flow lines), I think the problem was antecedent, in the production of dies.
In fact you can see that the same signs recur in different specimens...
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Thanks Nico. Those photos clearly answered my question. The marks are definitely on the die.
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Thanks Nico. Those photos clearly answered my question. The marks are definitely on the die.
+++
bye :)
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Hi Enodia,
Congratulations on your many beautiful Taras coins.
Meepzorp
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thank you!
it's been an interesting evolution. :)
~ Peter
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i was lucky enough to win two new coins at auction a few weeks back.
new addition #1...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-114871
here is a didrachm from the early 4th century BC, struck during the time of Archytas. i'd like to say it looks much better in hand, but the picture is a pretty good depiction. it's still quite nice though, and is also very rare. Fischer-Bossert sites only seven known examples. the engraver's signature is also peculiar, with the large 'H' on the body of the dolphin being different in style than most artists' signatures i've seen. even the pose of the dolphin rider is unusual.
this was a coin i just couldn't pass up, and i hope you like it too.
~ Peter
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and new addition #2...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-114880
this is an interesting diobol on a number of levels, including scarcity, relevance, etc. but the real reason i bought it is aesthetics. that and because i'm a sucker for facing head coins.
take a look!
~ Peter
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Two very nice additions, congratulations!!
c.rhodes
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thanks gordian_guy! :)
here's a new one, a tiny tiny Tarentine fraction i just received this week...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-115695
this little coin is only 0.15 grams! it's actually quite difficult to pick up and turn over, being about as thick as a sheet of heavy paper. i have to apologise for the image though. i tried and tried to get a better one, but it's just too small and darkly toned.
i had also hoped that once i got the coin in hand i would be able to make the arguement that the portrait on the obverse was of Dionysus, rather than the usual Satyra, Taras, or "female head right". the kantharos on the reverse certainly strikes a Dionysian chord, and His cult was very strong in Taras.
but alas, i see nothing to convince me that this is so.
would've been fun to talk about though, no? ;)
~ Peter
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Wow, that is amazingly small. Boggles the mind to think about how they engraved the dies.
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this was my thought too Nick. my friend looked at it and her first impression, of all things, was how detailed the beaded border was.
how the hell did they produce these little fractions?
i can hardly pick it up, so how did they get them out of the die at a production-line rate? and how small were the hammers they struck these with? i'm only guessing but i imagine these were struck with scissor-type dies rather than the usual anvil type.
boggled indeed,
~ Peter
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Hi Peter, congratulations for the acquisition. I love tarentine fractionals, and I wish I could have one beautiful and rare like that in my collection.
Thanks for sharing. :)
i'm only guessing but i imagine these were struck with scissor-type dies rather than the usual anvil type.
boggled indeed,
~ Peter
Hard to say. If so, but I could be wrong, dies should have the same orientation for many specimens.
That is a very interesting matter, the technique of minting for smallest ar fractionals. Does anyone have suggestions or readings to recommend?
bye :)
Nico
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thank you Nico, although you have plenty of enviable coins in your collection! :)
today i'm showing off my latest addition, a diobol from Mr. Vlasto's own collection...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-116814
this is the plate coin from the Descriptive Catalogue of the Collection of Tarentine Coins formed by M. P. Vlasto by Oscar Ravel, #1296. i hit the 'Buy' button for this one last week just before signing on here and seeing the new 'Plate Coins' gallery. how's that for serendipity?
but besides the fact that this is a plate coin i just really love the detail, especially Athena's helmet.
so i'm pretty happy with my first purchase of the new year. 8)
~ Peter
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A great start to 2015! Congrats!
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thanks Nick!
(and wow, quick reply! :o )
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Wow, that's a lovely coin Peter!! Congratulations! 8)
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thanks Nico. :)
today's addition is a little bigger, and from the infamous-sounding SGF Group. it's a Period V didrachm with a right-facing dolphin, the first in my collection! this coin is also unusual in that it depicts a martial scene on both sides.
thanks for looking!
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-117773
Hard to say. If so, but I could be wrong, dies should have the same orientation for many specimens.
That is a very interesting matter, the technique of minting for smallest ar fractionals. Does anyone have suggestions or readings to recommend?
i'd like to reiterate Taras' question, if anybody knows.
thank you.
~ Peter
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today i am proud to announce the addition of my third plate coin from the M.P Vlasto collection, this time a nice drachm of a type i did not previously own...
i really like the owl on this one, standing as he is on an Ionic capital. but the provenance is the real attraction, and it is such a kick to think that while i may not know where this coin has been for the majority of the last 2400 years, but i sure know where it was in 1947, in a photo gallery being photographed for the 'Descriptive Catalogue of the Collection of Tarentine Coins formed by M. P. Vlasto', cataloged by Oscar Ravel.
enjoy...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-118944
~ Peter
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today i am proud to announce the addition of my third plate coin from the M.P Vlasto collection, this time a nice drachm of a type i did not previously own...
i really like the owl on this one, standing as he is on an Ionic capital. but the provenance is the real attraction, and it is such a kick to think that while i may not know where this coin has been for the majority of the last 2400 years, but i sure know where it was in 1947, in a photo gallery being photographed for the 'Descriptive Catalogue of the Collection of Tarentine Coins formed by M. P. Vlasto', cataloged by Oscar Ravel.
enjoy...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-118944
~ Peter
...and now in 2015 in good hands again.
Great acquisition Peter, a beautiful coin, I love the owl on the capital!
Best :)
Nico
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thank you Nico, and thanks to everyone for the comments.
i have been trying to find a symbolic significance for the capital, but so far nothing has jumped up. could it denote some administrative or possibly architectural achievement? or just artistic expression with no deeper meaning? other drachms have obvious significance, such as the owl standing on an olive branch or lightning bolt. Evans does comment on these when they occur, but gives no reason for choosing the capital of a column for the owl's perch.
curiously,
~ Peter
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thank you Nico, and thanks to everyone for the comments.
i have been trying to find a symbolic significance for the capital, but so far nothing has jumped up. could it denote some administrative or possibly architectural achievement? or just artistic expression with no deeper meaning? other drachms have obvious significance, such as the owl standing on an olive branch or lightning bolt. Evans does comment on these when they occur, but gives no reason for choosing the capital of a column for the owl's perch.
curiously,
~ Peter
Hi Peter, I don't know if there is a religious symbolic meaning in the iconography, but I think that the owl standing on the ionic capital is a sign of Attic influences on Tarentine art. I also often have wondered why we found ionic capitals on Tarentine coinage, also staters, and why we find real ionic capitals in tarentine architectural archaeology, since IV c. BC.; why this typically Attic forms in the Doric Taras?
I gave myself a possible answer, thinking that there were strict contacts between Taras and the Molossian tribe of Epirus (there's no need to mention here the Epirot warlords coming to Italy to help Taras against Italic populations and Rome). We know the outcomes of the Peloponnesian War greatly conditioned the political developments in Epirus, where the gradual emergence of the Molossian monarchy started. The increasing Athenian influence of the tribes in Epirus, in particular for Molossians, changed the political balance inside Epirus and, consequently, also the territorial boundaries tribes, making possible the expansion and the rise of the Molossians. I think Epirots could have been the vectors for Attic influence into Tarentum since IV c. BC, after the end of the Peloponnesian War.
Best :)
Nico
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Hi Peter, I don't know if there is a religious symbolic meaning in the iconography, but I think that the owl standing on the ionic capital is a sign of Attic influences on Tarentine art. I also often have wondered why we found ionic capitals on Tarentine coinage, also staters, and why we find real ionic capitals in tarentine architectural archaeology, since IV c. BC.; why this typically Attic forms in the Doric Taras?
very interesting Nico, and thank you. the question of 'why not Doric' struck me too, but i put it down to fashion, that the period we're dicussing is long after the popularity of Doric architecture, regardless of the Spartan origins of Taras. the Ionic column was common throughout the rest of Achean influenced southern Italy, that that influence eventually reached Taras.
or not. i think i will be taking my copy of Vetruvius to work with me tonight. :)
but my question really was not the reason an Ionic capital was chosen over a seemingly more appropriate Doric type, but rather 'why any column at all?'
this would still make me wonder whether the column was Doric, Ionic, Corinthian or even a modern I-beam. the owl was deliberately placed upon a specific object, and i'm wondering why that object was chosen. my experience is that, for the most part, symbols on coins are not chosen willy-nilly. however i suppose all this could possibly boil down to simple artistic license.
regardless, i love this coin! 8)
thanks again for the food for thought,
~ Peter
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the question of 'why not Doric' struck me too, but i put it down to fashion, that the period we're dicussing is long after the popularity of Doric architecture, regardless of the Spartan origins of Taras. the Ionic column was common throughout the rest of Achean influenced southern Italy, that that influence eventually reached Taras.
or not. i think i will be taking my copy of Vetruvius to work with me tonight. :)
My friend, I think ionic capitals like those seen in Taras (architecture and coinage from IV-III c) were not so trendy in south Italy, in fact there are not other samples in the near areas, and no samples from any Achaean polis.
All the surviving temples I visited during my travels in Magna Graecia have doric capitals. Of course I have seen the rare samples of ionic capitals from achaean poleis stored in museums, they are from Sybaris, Poseidonia, Metapontion, and even in doric Lokris, but they are quite different in style from the Tarentine samples, they are dated 500-450 BC, directly influenced in style from Asia Minor, not Attica (for example, the specimens at Lokris are directly influenced from Samos in style, earlier than the Eretteus in Athens; also try to google "capitello ionico Metaponto", you will see how much different style is, so oriental).
The ionic capitals from IV cent. Tarentum are different, unique samples for all the near areas and the whole coast of the Gulf of Tarentum, no samples from Apulia, Calabria or Lucania, no samples from any achaean poleis, we only know a sample from Rhegion.
Outside of south Italy the Tarentine IV century ionic-italic samples do match a sample found in Sicily, another one in Campania, and other samples in Etruria and Epirus, (all areas with remarkable Attic influences), and north Africa. The style of the IV century ionic-italic capitals evolved and did spread much in Sicily and Etruria where we find many later samples (again we do not find any samples in achaean poleis), and still later became popular in Republican Rome.
So the ionic capitals from achaean poleis you mentioned were made in years when the doric architecture was still very popular in Magna Graecia (where the concept of fashion, i.e. ionic capitals replacing older doric capitals is not so clear as in mainland Greece... think of Poseidonia, the temple of Hera, with doric columns, was built half century later after the temple of Athena, with ionic columns), and we do not find those types of eastern style ionic capitals in Taras. At the other hand the later tarentine ionic capital types are not found in any achaean poleis, and in style they are not influenced by the older eastern-inspired achaean samples, but they do match samples found in Epirus.
I wish I had more time to post images and draw maps to make more clear what I'm stating, but the man-faced bull is calling me now, sorry. :)
Bye Peter, and thanks to you so much for giving me your imputs to talk about the history and art of the lands I love.
Regards
Nico
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okay, it's just not fair that you can take a short drive and see this stuff for yourself while all i get is 12,000 foot mountains and 300 foot Douglas Fir trees. where is Lord Elgin when you need him?! ;)
thank you for that clarity Nico, i'm afraid i was a victim of my own assumptions. but yes, the image of the temples at Paestum Poseidonia is filling my head with Doric influences even now.
but i guess we'll never know why this damned bird chose to lite on that column. i guess i'll go with random perch and artistic expression and stop looking for a deeper meaning.
...no, on second thought that's probably never gonna happen. ;)
in avian limbo,
~ Peter
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okay, it's just not fair that you can take a short drive and see this stuff for yourself while all i get is 12,000 foot mountains and 300 foot Douglas Fir trees. where is Lord Elgin when you need him?! ;)
LOL ;D
but i guess we'll never know why this damned bird chose to lite on that column. i guess i'll go with random perch and artistic expression and stop looking for a deeper meaning.
...no, on second thought that's probably never gonna happen. ;)
in avian limbo,
~ Peter
Peter... the owl on the capital is also depicted on a bronze quincunx minted in Tiati during the second punic war.
Maybe could the meaning be political? ???
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Peter... the owl on the capital is also depicted on a bronze quincunx minted in Tiati during the second punic war.
Maybe could the meaning be political? ???
that's an interesting connection Nico, and one i never would have thought to look for. so, possibly a political connection.
however thanks to the efforts of our resident Research Queen i am now focussing my energy in a more religious direction.
i haven't found anything definitive yet, but there seems to be some connection between the Ionic column and the cult of Dionysus, which would not be out of place at all in Taras and might explain the occurence of this seemingly 'foreign' style in a predominantly Doric polis.
stay tuned!
~ Peter
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today i'm happy to announce the addition of a new plate coin, from Taras!
this silver fraction is Vlasto 1489, a litra from the late 4th century BC...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-119575
this coin came with some odd red deposits on the obverse. a friend thought it may have been wax, which it does look like in the photo. however these deposits are quite hard and appear to be paint or nail polish. some of the bigger spots came off with a little pressure from the back side of my dental pick, but any further picking might scratch the surface. i might try a soak and some brushing, but i think i'll wait and see if i can determine what these deposits are first. how these might have ended up on an important coin like this is a mystery though. they don't appear to be on the original plate image from 1947, but then that plate image is not very clear.
in any case i'm really happy to add my 4th Vlasto plate coin, especially since it was a gift from a much appreciated friend.
gratefully,
~ Peter
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I've never found out exactly how it was done, but apparently plaster casts (or the moulds) were made with sealing wax. My trial with a modern coin left me with a coin covered in almost unremovable sealing wax, so I wouldn't recommend it. It is very possible that you're not supposed to make the moulds from sealing wax but the actual casts. Or it could be putty that has hardened but that doesn't seem as likely, since you would remove that when it is fresh.
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thanks Andreas.
actually another friend suggested the same thing, but i was thinking about a softer wax. sealing wax, being much harder, is a possibility i hadn't considered.
i'll try to detach another sample and see if it melts like wax.
~ Peter
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Thank you Andreas for your valuable opinion.
As I wrote in another thread, we know that Ravel, by his own admission, he compiled the entire Vlasto catalogue without taking direct view of the collection. Dr. W. Schwabacher sent him the molds made from all the coins in the collection, and Ravel made cast copies to be photographed for the plates.
Maybe, as I thought, those red deposits were traces of that historical numismatic case.
The coin is lovely, congratulations Peter ;)
Regards :)
Nico
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the latest addition to my Taras collection is this 3rd century bronze.
i'd like to say it looks better in hand, but that is not the case this time. still, it is a very hard to find type and i was glad to find it.
it is a bit unusual for a Tarentine coin, having none of the usual devices we've come to expect (Horse, dolphin, shell, etc).
check it out...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-120340
~ Peter
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i was hoping to announce the 40th entry to my Taras collection with something special, but unfortunately that coin has been stuck in Customs in SF for the past month. >:(
however my tax return was pretty nice so i have added a couple of fractions in the meantime, numbers 40 and 41.
the first is an early hemilitra from the 5th century BC...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-121446
and the next a litra from 150 or so years later, which i aquired for the left-facing dolphin...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-121558
in fact i'm not 100% positive about the attribution of either of these coins, but this was as close as i could get with the resources i have available. i don't think they are too far off, and both are different than the dealer attributions
hopefully my didrachm will be released from captivity soon!
~ Peter
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Nice collection .. +++
Q.
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thanks Q! :)
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i was hoping to announce the 40th entry to my Taras collection with something special, but unfortunately that coin has been stuck in Customs in SF for the past month. >:(
however my tax return was pretty nice so i have added a couple of fractions in the meantime, numbers 40 and 41.
the first is an early hemilitra from the 5th century BC...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-121446
and the next a litra from 150 or so years later, which i aquired for the left-facing dolphin...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-121558
in fact i'm not 100% positive about the attribution of either of these coins, but this was as close as i could get with the resources i have available. i don't think they are too far off, and both are different than the dealer attributions
hopefully my didrachm will be released from captivity soon!
~ Peter
I love the rarest litra, great acquisition Peter!
bye ;)
Nico
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thanks Nico, i'm glad you like it.
i hope you like this one too as i know you are into Herakles first labor...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-122214
Head of Athena right, helmet decorated with a hippocamp.
Herakles strangling the Nemean lion, EY above.
this is the plate coin from the Descriptive Catalogue of the Collection of Tarentine Coins formed by M. P. Vlasto (1947).
not terribly different from most of this type, but i'm still excited! :)
~ Peter
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That's a great new plate coin, Peter. If I were to wear a helmet, I too would adorn it with a hippocamp.
I wonder how many Vlasto plate coins are owned just between the two of you?!
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not enough! 8)
and i agree about the hippocamp. i certainly wouldn't want Skylla sitting on my head!
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lol! i thought you might agree. :)
to answer your question Nick, i now have 5 coins from Vlasto's collection, and counting (i hope). i believe Nico can top that though.
in anticipa... tion,
~ Peter
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I have six staters (four of which are "Oikistes" types, so also plate coins on NNM 15, of which I have the 1922 original edition too 8) ) and only two fractionals :(
I hope I will add many more in the next years. In my plans one day they will be stored up at their hometown.
Bye my friends
Nico
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I have six staters (four of which are "Oikistes" types, so also plate coins on NNM 15, of which I have the 1922 original edition too 8) )
wow man, that's pretty impressive!
and only two fractionals :(
oh, i don't think that's quite correct. ;)
I hope I will add many more in the next years. In my plans one day they will be stored up at their hometown.
i think this is a great plan, one which i whole-heartedly support.
perhaps someday our collections will be displayed side-by-side.
~ Peter
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perhaps someday our collections will be displayed side-by-side.
~ Peter
I think so my friend. ;)
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another new fraction arrived a couple of days ago, Vlasto 1464. this one features a facing Athena which i adore.
the style is not as fine as my other Tarentine facing-head, but it is still pretty and also rather scarce. unfortunately this coin is not in great condition, being heavily worn and slightly pitted. it does look better in hand, but only slightly.
i've had my eye on this piece for some time, but it was offered for what i considered far too much money for the grade. the dealer finally lowered the price awhile back and i almost pulled the trigger, but still i hesitated because of the condition.
however when he recently lowered it still further i could no longer hold back. i can resist anything but temptation! :evil:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-122374
i am still awaiting some positive news from the post office about my missing 5th century didrachm which should have arrived 2 months ago, but it is not looking good. :( this coin was supposed to be the 40th entry to my Taras gallery, but at this rate i will be lucky to list it as my 50th, if ever.
*sigh*
meanwhile enjoy your browse, and there is cheese and wine at the back of the gallery. 8)
~ Peter
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my newest Tarentine coin is also my oldest didrachm...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-122839
i'm not sure how to precisely attribute this one however, as it is apparently not listed in Vlasto. but i do love the type, with the archaic dolphin rider and the really cool hippocamp.
this is in fact a replacement coin, since the first one i ordered like this was lost in the mail! after more than 2 1/2 months of waiting, contacting the post office (what a run-around!), contacting US Customs, and then initiating a postal search, all with no positive results, i finally got in touch with the dealer, who had graciously paid the original postage for me. fortunately it was insured, and so i took a credit and applied it to this coin. thank you very much to the dealer who made this rather scarey situation as smooth as could be expected. :)
the first Tarentine didrachms which were not of the earliest and extremely rare double incuse style were dolphin rider/wheel types, with the hippocamp reverse coming immediately after the beginning of the 5th century. however these smaller flan hippocamps came slightly later still, circa 470-450 BC. while barely 17mm in diameter, it is quite a fat chunk of silver!
check it out, and feel free to comment!
~ Peter
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my newest Tarentine coin is a high relief 4th century BC didrachm by the KAL engraver!
this was a birthday present from my best friend, and i couldn't be happier to add it to my collection. in fact i'm more excited about this coin than i have been for some time!
it is a right-facing dolphin, my first Period IV didrachm, and a beautifully scenic reverse. but perhaps most importantly, at least for a collector of Tarentine coins, both sides are signed by the so-called KAL engraver, to my mind the finest coin artist in Magna Graecia. his simple, everyday themes were so perfectly executed that the moments seem to come alive, taking me back in time like no other ancient coins can do. and why else do we collect these little round canvases?
Sir Arthur Evans believed that this reverse depicts the polis of Taras mourning the death of Archidamos, the king of Sparta who brought his mercenary army to southern Italy to help against the combined forces of the Lucanians and Messapians during the first Lucanian war, and who was killed in the ensuing battle. as such it depicts an emotion as much as a static scene, which KAL has captured so beautifully in the contemplative and pensive attitude of the dolphin rider.
can you tell i really love this coin?! :)
enjoy...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-123389
~ Peter
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another birthday present, this one a scarce diobol showing Herakles kneeling left...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-123454
there are very few left-facing Herakles reverses in the Vlasto catalog, and this appears to be the only one with Herakles kneeling.
cool! 8)
~ Peter
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today i am happy to present my latest coin from Taras, a 3rd century didrachm of the type known as 'Campano-Tarentine'...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-124048
the unusual (for Taras) portrait obverse caused some 19th century numismatists to declare this an alliance issue between Taras and Neapolis, due to the similarity between this type and the Nymph/MFB coins of Campania. however there is no history of such an alliance, and the nymph on the obverse of this coin is more likely Satyra, the mother of Taras.
the heavier weight is interesting though, and probably means that this series was struck to circulate throughout southern Italy rather than just within Taras itself, which had switched to a lower standard at the time of the Pyrrhic wars.
there is a prior discussion of this type with some astute observations by Nico toward the end of this thread...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=78472.0
a curious issue in any case, and one which was struck from many die combinations, some beautiful and some less so. i personally think this one is a classic example of Hellenistic portraiture. the toning is nice too! ;)
enjoy!
~ Peter
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today i added another obol of the rather common kantharos type, but this one appears to be an unpublished variety...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-124452
at least i have not been able to find another like it anywhere in my library or on any of the online references to which i have access.
if anyone can provide me with a better attribution i would appreciate it.
thanks,
~ Peter
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I always enjoyed watching these little Greek coins +++ :) ;)
Congratulation
Q.
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thanks Q. :)
i have another one on the way which is less than half this size!
~ Peter
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the latest addition to my Taras gallery is this strange little hemiobol...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-124593
the meaning of the symbols escape me, nor can i find anything written about this type. why the cup? what does the 'P' in the wreath stand for? (other symbols are known) is it even Tarentine?
whatever the answers to these questions may be, i have had this rare type targeted for some time and was finally able to find one at an almost reasonable price.
and that makes me happy! :)
~ Peter
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Hmm another interesting and rare small coin,
very nice
Congratulation.. +++
Q.
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it took a few months but i just added my latest Tarentine coin, a didrachm from the penultimate period of the cities mint...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-126713
Evans separated the post-Pyrrhic era into two categories; Roman Alliance I and Roman Alliance II (both of reduced weight). the criteria for the separation was artistic style, with the Period VIII coins being far inferior to the coins we are used to seeing from the prior century. but the many of the coins of Period IX are of a much finer style, representing something of a renaissance during this final era of Tarentine autonomy.
the coins of Period X, those issued during the Punic occupation of 212-209, are struck using similar themes but of a much degraded style. in fact the Horseman shown here may represent the model for the inferior coins that followed.
Evans terminates the Tarentine series with the alleged closing of the mint in 228, but hoard evidence greatly suggests that these Period IX issues were struck right up until the the city was under the control of Hannibal. this makes more sense to me than the re-opening of a long disused facility.
in any case i think this specimen represents one of the nicer types from this era, bringing back the animation of the earlier types. i also like that the city was once again producing beautiful coins right up until the end.
and this is the 50th coin in my Taras collection!
enjoy, and don't forget to press the Position + button to put the gallery into its proper order.
~ Peter
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it took a few months but i just added my latest Tarentine coin, a didrachm from the penultimate period of the cities mint...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-126713
Evans separated the post-Pyrrhic era into two categories; Roman Alliance I and Roman Alliance II (both of reduced weight). the criteria for the separation was artistic style, with the Period VIII coins being far inferior to the coins we are used to seeing from the prior century. but the many of the coins of Period IX are of a much finer style, representing something of a renaissance during this final era of Tarentine autonomy.
the coins of Period X, those issued during the Punic occupation of 212-209, are struck using similar themes but of a much degraded style. in fact the Horseman shown here may represent the model for the inferior coins that followed.
Evans terminates the Tarentine series with the alleged closing of the mint in 228, but hoard evidence greatly suggests that these Period IX issues were struck right up until the the city was under the control of Hannibal. this makes more sense to me than the re-opening of a long disused facility.
in any case i think this specimen represents one of the nicer types from this era, bringing back the animation of the earlier types. i also like that the city was once again producing beautiful coins right up until the end.
and this is the 50th coin in my Taras collection!
enjoy, and don't forget to press the Position + button to put the gallery into its proper order.
~ Peter
Congratulation Peter,
Nice collection..
It's time to celebrate... :)
Q.
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Impessive collection, there is so much detail, even on those small coins
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thank you both. :)
i'm constantly amazed at how intricate some of those fractions can be!
~ Peter
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Dear Peter,
it has been a long time now I have not been present in this thread, although, you know, being one of my favorites. During the last months I had to use all my numismatic free-time fixated on man-faced bulls with my friend Nick Molinari, to reach the finish line of our work, which finally we almost see.
Well, first of all congratulations for all your new amazing acquisitions, your collection is growing more and more beautiful and interesting.
In the future time I will check my notes and my volumes to see if I find something interesting on the types you acquired, or to give you some more references to add in descriptions.
Today I want to use my time to comment on the hemiobol you posted here:
the latest addition to my Taras gallery is this strange little hemiobol...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-124593
the meaning of the symbols escape me, nor can i find anything written about this type. why the cup? what does the 'P' in the wreath stand for? (other symbols are known) is it even Tarentine?
whatever the answers to these questions may be, i have had this rare type targeted for some time and was finally able to find one at an almost reasonable price.
and that makes me happy! :)
~ Peter
(https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21312/normal_Vlasto_1744.JPG)
To my knowledge there is no specific terminology for this vascular form, beyond the generic term "one-handled jug", used by archaeologists to define these kind of pottery attested in southern Italy among the tableware ceramics found in tombs dating back since the early Iron Age.
About the centuries related to the hemiobol, we know some samples found in samnite tombs, dated 5th c. BC: also many samples have been found during excavations at the Kerameikòs of Metapontion, dating 4th BC; and a specimen was found in a tomb at Tarentum dated by archaeologists to the second quarter of 4th BC.
About the coin, the denomination hemiobol is correct, it corresponds to 1/24 stater (a.w. 0.27g), on the weight standard defined as Nomos Italiotikòs. These fractionals were issued starting shortly after the foundation of the tarentine colony of Heraclea, so the correct dating should be c. 430-380 BC.
Many variants are known for both obv and rev, with different symbols and letters in field and/or within wreath (one variant has no letters or symbols within wreath), so the meaning of the letters within wreath is to be identified not as symbolic devices, but rather as signs of recognition relating either to magistrates or workshops.
The only constant devices are the main types: the jug on obverse, and the wreath on reverse. Let's try now to make some iconological assumptions on them.
The symbology of the wreath is simple to solve, as it is clearly a symbol of cyclicality related to passage and rebirth, of near eastern origin, as seen on archaic levantine gems found in the tyrrhenian area. (its symbology related to victory is later).
But what is the meaning of the jug?
The solution is seen on the coinage of Heraclea Lucaniae and Kroton. See the pics I attached to this post, they are all coins issued from 5th to 3rd BC. In all of these types the jug in question is always connected to Herakles, we can state it is an attribute of the hero, we see it in field during his battle with the nemean lion, and holded in his hand during his rest after the victory, and even during a ritual libation he performs. A further evidence that this kind of jug was an attribute of Herakles for the Greeks living in south Italy comes from a rare bronze type issued at Heraklea, where we see it depicted on obverse, paired with bow and quiver, which we all know to be, along with the club, typical attributes of the hero! We even know that at Tarentum Herakles had a strong cult, with worship places in which were performed rites of passage from youth to adulthood. These jugs were probably used during those rites of passage, as we see on the type from Heraklea. These jugs were also buried in tombs, probably as symbol of death as passage to another dimension.
So dear Peter, now we can possibly assume that the symbology of the types of your coin is to be related to the hope of the Tarentine citizens, asking to Herakles a good passage for their polis, just at a time when, by the founding of the newborn colony Heraklea, its political power in the area was growing stronger.
Any comment is welcome.
Here is a list of references for almost all the known samples and variants of this hemiobol (if anybody knows any more, or if anyone should find errors in my list, please help me to update it): HN Italy 867; Vlasto 1739-1753; Pozzi 429; Weber 577-578; BMC 464-472; Winterthur 313-314; McClean 780-781; Torino 825; Napoli Fiorelli 2144-2148; Napoli Santangelo 3321-3325; SNG Evelpidis 178; SNG Brasil 362; SNG Hungary 199-200; SNG Fitzwilliam 373-374; SNG Lockett 309; SNG Ashmolean 593-595; SNG Manchester 151; SNG Dreer 227; SNG Munchen 794-795; SNG Tubingen 418; SNG Cop 1019-1022; SNG France 2224-2228
High-res pics of the SNG France specimens are available at these links:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85981404.r=tarente%20g%C3%A9n%C3%A9ral%20995
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8598139g.r=tarente%20g%C3%A9n%C3%A9ral%20994
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8475209z.r=tarente%20luynes%20376
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b84752074.r=tarente%20luynes%20374
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8475208j.r=tarente%20luynes%20375
The informations I provided in this post are summarized from my notes for a future work on the coinage of Magna Graecia, using for reference and bibliography various sylloges, catalogues, and the works of the following authors: F. D'andria, A. Siciliano, S. Garraffo, G. Sarcinelli, M. Taliercio Mensitieri.
As far as I know no scholar has ever questioned the attribution of these types to Tarentum.
Best :)
Nico
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Very insightful Nico.
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Taras , your posts are always impressive.
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wow! :o
alright, first of all let me say welcome back Nico, your input has been sorely missed. as for your future book, i am intrigued. if there is anything i can do to help please let me know.
your observations regarding this coin are interesting, and certainly appropriate from a scientist. ;) . i would not have thought to reduce the wreath to a circle, but it seems logical in a cult sense.
so we can assume that the need for small change at Taras coincided with the founding of Herakleia, so why not a Herakles type? and can we then further assume the same cult associations for the bow & arrow / wreath types? (which i don't have... yet)
i'm not doubting, just trying to make sure i understand.
i also figured that the symbols were probably official signatures of some sort, especially since the series appears to have run for a few generations at least.
it seems to me from my own limited research that the left handled types are less common than the right handled. is that confirm-able?
thanks so much for the insights,
~ Peter 8)
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wow! :o
alright, first of all let me say welcome back Nico, your input has been sorely missed. as for your future book, i am intrigued. if there is anything i can do to help please let me know.
your observations regarding this coin are interesting, and certainly appropriate from a scientist. ;) . i would not have thought to reduce the wreath to a circle, but it seems logical in a cult sense.
so we can assume that the need for small change at Taras coincided with the founding of Herakleia, so why not a Herakles type? and can we then further assume the same cult associations for the bow & arrow / wreath types? (which i don't have... yet)
i'm not doubting, just trying to make sure i understand.
i also figured that the symbols were probably official signatures of some sort, especially since the series appears to have run for a few generations at least.
it seems to me from my own limited research that the left handled types are less common than the right handled. is that confirm-able?
thanks so much for the insights,
~ Peter 8)
Hi my friend!
Yes I think the cult association is the same fro the bow arrow/ wreath types, because the cult of Herakles in Tarentum was strictly connected with rites of passage, as I already said above.
The wreath as symbol of cyclical rebirth and passage was of near eastern origins, in cult association with liminal entities carrying souls to the afterlife, as we can see for example on this phoenician gem found at Tharros in Sardinia (very important for us even to understand the real meaning of the so-called "nike" crowning man-faced bulls on later campanian coinage).
This particular symbology of the wreath IMHO was still working in hellenistic Egypt, or we might not otherwise understand the meaning of child's mummies like this one stored at the Museo Egizio in Turin, as a child could not have been winner of any military battle, or any olympic games, so the wreath in this case must necessarily have an eschatological funerary meaning.
You are right, the left-handled types are less common.
Best :)
Nico
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it's been 4 long months since i added the 50th coin to my Taras collection, but i did acquire a couple of new ones recently while my computer was down.
the first is this 3rd century BC obol, a variation on the kantharos/kantharos type with this one having a bucranium on the reverse. these are not rare but are definitely much scarcer than the usual type...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-129316
~ Peter
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the 2nd addition is a diobol of the Athena/Herakles & lion type, but this one with a twist. on this reverse the battle is over and Herakles is resting on the lion's dead carcass, leaning on his club and raising his cup.
this coin is very, very rare (probably the rarest coin in my collection), and Vlasto only knew of the one die combination... in fact this was his specimen!
unfortunately it looks as though someone tried cleaning it with a rasp and left it with some deep scratches. it really does look better in hand though, as long as you don't use too big a glass...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-129324
a rare plate coin with a long provenance... i'm happy! 8)
~ Peter
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Hi Enodia,
Congratulations on acquiring a very rare and interesting coin!!!
I didn't even know that type existed. I've never seen one for sale.
Meepzorp
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Hi Enodia,
Congratulations on acquiring a very rare and interesting coin!!!
I didn't even know that type existed. I've never seen one for sale.
thank you. :)
i was not aware of this type either, until it showed up at CNG. it's a shame it is so abused, but i found it too intriguing to pass up. i also like the way it puts a finishing stroke on the Nemean lion myth.
i have been scouring my catalog collection for another like it, but so far to no avail. i am very interested in any other examples anyone might know of, or any more information on this specimen.
~ Peter
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here is a new diobol i got last month but have not been able to post due to technical difficulties.
it is another in the Herakles/Nemean lion series, this one featuring the opening scene in this mythological drama. as such it makes a nice counterpoint to the coin posted above, and bookends the battle rather nicely i think...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-129984
it isn't in great shape, but it is a quite scarce variety and it wasn't very expensive.
Joe once listed a different coin from this series in the Forvm shop, and in his comments mentioned that there were so many different interpretations of this battle that one could put together one of those old-fashioned flip books with each variety and thereby animate the entire battle. the idea of that stuck with me, and gave me an idea which i would like to exploit as soon as my computer is fixed (and for 'fixed' please read 'replaced').
so have a look and let me know what you think. 8)
~ Peter
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here's a new coin i've been trying to post for about a week now (still having access issues). it is a scarce little bronze which i've been looking for for a few years and finally found at auction recently...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-130399
this coin is interesting as it mimics the silver fractions which ran at Taras for more than a century, and is similarly rich in Dionysian symbolism.
:)
~ Peter
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Nice and interesting specimen... +++
Q.
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thank you quadrans. :)
~ Peter
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today i'm showing off my latest didrachm from Taras, an early piece struck during the 2nd period of 'Horsemen', immediately after the 'transitional period' of the late 5th century BC.
this coin is interesting in that the dolphin is on the obverse, rather than the reverse as on all of the following didrachms for the next 200 years...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-130686
here the ephebe is shown dismounting his galloping horse, probably as a part of the equestrian games during the annual festival to Apollo, and as such is a pre-cursor to this later pre-Pyrrhic coin...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-82071
enjoy!
~ Peter
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Both nice coins, congrats!
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Both nice coins, congrats!
thanks Nick! :)
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Nice examples Peter... +++
Q.
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thank you Q!
~ Peter
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here are a couple more diobols from the Nemean lion series.
the first is another plate coin from the M.P. Vlasto collection which i am delighted to add to my own. the dark gun-barrel blue toning highlighted on the reverse with some reddish hues is really quite appealing, but unfortunately doesn't really translate to the picture... https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-132240
the second addition is a lovely little coin which is so much better in hand than the image reveals. it is well struck and nicely centered, with a very artistically rendered portrait and a cute little owl.
i really love this one...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-132254
enjoy,
~ Peter
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WoW , what very nice micro-beauties :) !
Phenomenal and fantastic additions.
Thank you for sharing Peter.
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thank you Sam, you're very kind.
~ Peter
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here are a couple more diobols from the Nemean lion series.
the first is another plate coin from the M.P. Vlasto collection which i am delighted to add to my own. the dark gun-barrel blue toning highlighted on the reverse with some reddish hues is really quite appealing, but unfortunately doesn't really translate to the picture... https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-132240
the second addition is a lovely little coin which is so much better in hand than the image reveals. it is well struck and nicely centered, with a very artistically rendered portrait and a cute little owl.
i really love this one...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-132254
enjoy,
~ Peter
I like this both... +++
Regards
Q.
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thank you Q!
the plate coin is really very nice in hand, but seems to be overshadowed by the little owl. perhaps i should have posted them separately? ;)
Is this coin issue for memorizing the Alexander Molonsian? I am trying to find a book to read more details on Taras diobol. But it seems there little further information for it, not like the nomos.
i always enjoy discussing the coins of Taras Leo, however it is difficult to know for certain as this series ran for more than a century, and is sometimes hard to disambiguate from the very similar (but slightly earlier) series from Herakleia. it seems certain that both were minted as a federal issue of the Italiote League, but i do think that if it were commemorating Alexander then we might expect to see a more typically Epirote symbol than an owl.
you are right in saying that there is a dearth of information regarding this series, at least in English. i had, at one time, entertained the idea of adding a small monograph of my own to the collective knowledge, but alas, my muse has flown. perhaps someday.
until then i highly recommend doing a Forvm search for posts on the subject from my dear friend and sorely missed former member Taras, whose knowledgeable and erudite comments are an invaluable source of information on our favorite subject. i guarantee you will not be disappointed!
~ Peter
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two more fractions i bought last month.
this one is a bookend to the diobol i posted just above, with the little owl standing on the lion's back. however this one has Athena facing left, and appears to be unlisted in Vlasto...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-132730
the next one is a tartemorion, and part of a series with the horses head on both sides. this one has the heads facing away in opposite directions and mates nicely with two others in my collection...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-132729
enjoy!
~ Peter
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It is nice both..
.. but my Favourite the tartemorion, both side horse... :) +++
Q.
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Really nice , I bet you if you can find an artist in today 's world , can fit all this in 11 mm without a help from a machine .
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thank you both.
today i'm showing off my latest coin, and the 60th of my Taras collection!
i've been waiting to add this one for some time, but couldn't find anything interesting that i didn't already have. i guess that's a common problem when a collection begins to grow...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-133432
anyway, i haven't seen this rare type come up for sale before, and i've been looking for many years, so i just knew i had to have it. 8)
the various attributions collide a little bit, with some references calling it a diobol and some a trihemiobol. seemingly a stalemate, but after some research and thought i have decided to go with the former. Vlasto claims it to be a trihemiobol based on the symbols around both sides, but the weight doesn't coincide with that denomination, and i believe the symbols to have more to do with the Dioskouri than a mark of value.
of course i could be wrong, but i like the denomination given in HN Italy better, and so until i see a convincing argument otherwise, diobol it is.
check! (and mate?)
enjoy,
~ Peter
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I love it. I've never seen anything quite like it and it seems so unusual for Taras, no?
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I love it. I've never seen anything quite like it and it seems so unusual for Taras, no?
hi Nick, and thanks for the comment! :)
yes, a bit different from the norm.
there are actually about 5 or 6 varieties of these horse head types, all scarce, all from about the same era and all a bit different from each other. most have a single horse on each side, facing in various directions. i have four of them now... both heads right, one left and one right, one right and one left, and this one. there is another with jugate horse heads, but that one is even more rare. i've been watching for one of those too, but i think that one might take awhile.
it's the ) : ( symbols on this one which i find particularly interesting. Vlasto says they are a mark of value, but that is not typical of Tarentine coins in my experience. although the kantharos type obols do have a various numbers of pellets around the central device, they are still all the same denomination.
i really wish Nico was here to chime in.
take care,
~ Peter
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I love it. I've never seen anything quite like it and it seems so unusual for Taras, no?
i really wish Nico was here to chime in.
Me too. I keep bugging him to come back so we'll see.
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thank you both.
today i'm showing off my latest coin, and the 60th of my Taras collection!
i've been waiting to add this one for some time, but couldn't find anything interesting that i didn't already have. i guess that's a common problem when a collection begins to grow...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-133432
anyway, i haven't seen this rare type come up for sale before, and i've been looking for many years, so i just knew i had to have it. 8)
the various attributions collide a little bit, with some references calling it a diobol and some a trihemiobol. seemingly a stalemate, but after some research and thought i have decided to go with the former. Vlasto claims it to be a trihemiobol based on the symbols around both sides, but the weight doesn't coincide with that denomination, and i believe the symbols to have more to do with the Dioskouri than a mark of value.
of course i could be wrong, but i like the denomination given in HN Italy better, and so until i see a convincing argument otherwise, diobol it is.
check! (and mate?)
enjoy,
~ Peter
Great coin Peter....
Nice, rare and interesting ..and I like it .. :) +++ ;)
Q.
-
thanks Q.
I love it. I've never seen anything quite like it and it seems so unusual for Taras, no?
i really wish Nico was here to chime in.
Me too. I keep bugging him to come back so we'll see.
try poking him with a stick! ;)
here is my first coin of 2017, yet another Athena/Herakles diobol...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-133866
it was sold as Vlasto 1290v (Athena right), but it is actually Vlasto 1260.
it's a bit worn, but really does look nicer in hand. and while i'm not yet ready to list this coin as 'scarce', i have not found another 1260 anywhere online, so perhaps it is. :)
~ Peter
-
here's another obscure type from Taras...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-134389
Vlasto lists this as an "unknown denomination", but at .48g it must certainly be an obol. however his example had the nymph facing left, and may have been unique. this right-facing type is unpublished as far as i can tell, with nothing else like it in any of my resources or on the internet (at least so far, but the search continues). and there are those pesky crescents again, although this time 'sans étoiles'.
the dating of this type is also in doubt, at least to my mind. Vlasto lists it as 520-473 BC, but the style seems to be from later in the 5th century.
all this ambiguity meant that i absolutely had to have it, and now it only remains to try and answer some of these questions. i am considering it to be very rare though.
off to hit the books one more time,
~ Peter
-
What a rarity , thank you , for sharing. +++
** That makes it , best of the type :)
-
Nice one. Your gallery is getting really impressive!
-
thank you gentlemen!
i find these fractions to be quite fascinating, although they are leaving my bank account really unimpressive! but types like this one are so rarely available that i feel a need to grab them while i can.
maybe i should get a cardboard sign and stand at a nearby intersection...
"Need a Hemiobol. Anything Helps" ;)
~ Peter
-
My best wishes of fast healing to your wallet . +++
Live healthy , wealthy , and BUY :)
-
not yet completely healed Sam, but on the mend.
here's another unpublished 'mirror image' type coin, a scarce Dionysian fraction with Nike on the left instead of the right as on the Vlasto specimen. this was to have been my consolation coin had I not won the above auction, but a couple of glasses of pinot noir and I thought "eh, what the hell...". :evil:
I think I need one of those breathalyzer lock-out devices for my computer!...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-134926
~ Peter
-
this is the latest addition to my Taras collection...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-137057
it is not pristine and certainly not rare, but i think it's kinda pretty, and it's been awhile since my last purchase so i was in dire need of 'a fix'. :evil:
was it worth it? i guess i'll know better after my first new car payment comes in! :o
keeping up with my Joneses,
~ Peter
-
Nice one. I enjoyed the write up too, as always.
Ugh new car payments.
-
this is the latest addition to my Taras collection...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-137057
it is not pristine and certainly not rare, but i think it's kinda pretty, and it's been awhile since my last purchase so i was in dire need of 'a fix'. :evil:
was it worth it? i guess i'll know better after my first new car payment comes in! :o
keeping up with my Joneses,
~ Peter
Great addition Peter,
Congratulation +++
Q.
-
Nice one. I enjoyed the write up too, as always.
thanks Nick.
i enjoy doing them, and it keeps me busy during the seemingly interminable time between hitting the 'Buy' button and finally finding the coin in the mail box!
~ Peter
-
here's my latest, a late-period didrachm...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-137465
it is not rare or pristine, nothing very remarkable at all really. but i liked it and it was cheap, so it now has a good home. :)
~ Peter
-
It's an overall nice specimen. I like it.
-
A nice example
-
I agree nice one..
Q.
-
thanks gents!
here's another less than beautiful coin. i only placed the very low opening bid, but apparently no one else wanted it more so i have adopted it... :)
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-137730
it's an uncommon little(!) hemilitron, with a hare bounding right below the dolphin. the mark behind the hare looks to be deliberate in hand, but i can't recognize it, nor is any similar mark recorded in any of my sources, so at this point i'm just going to call it a blemish. the coin is rather beat up overall so this is probably correct, but any opinions will be appreciated.
~ Peter
-
Hi Peter,
Nice coin.
In my opinion there is beauty in fitting reasonable detail on such a small flan. In the case of your coin, the shell and dolphin look exactly like what they are meant to be.
Peter
-
thanks Peter.
and i agree completely. as long as i've been collecting i am still amazed at the kind of detail these ancient artists could capture on such a tiny canvas.
quite fascinating really, especially considering the technology of the day.
~ Peter
-
thanks gents!
here's another less than beautiful coin. i only placed the very low opening bid, but apparently no one else wanted it more so i have adopted it... :)
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-137730
it's an uncommon little(!) hemilitron, with a hare bounding right below the dolphin. the mark behind the hare looks to be deliberate in hand, but i can't recognize it, nor is any similar mark recorded in any of my sources, so at this point i'm just going to call it a blemish. the coin is rather beat up overall so this is probably correct, but any opinions will be appreciated.
~ Peter
Really pretty coin ~Peter :) +++
Q.
-
thank you Q!
here's a new didrachm for the collection, a later example but of slightly finer style than usual for this period. mainly though i bought it because i think the bee is really cool!.. 8)
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-138045
~ Peter
-
Very nice bee. I saw a collection fairly recently with all bee related coins covering all periods of numismatics. I don't recall seeing this type.
I'm also a huge fan of local honey. I haven't had any allergy problems since I started taking it daily.
-
i've had good results too (ummmm... fireweed honey).
while not eliminating the symptoms of my seasonal allergies it has helped alleviate them. and of course Sherlock Holmes lived to be 103 by eating a daily dose of Royal Jelly!
a long time ago my wife bought a homeopathic elixir of local allergens which taken daily was supposed to relieve allergy symptoms. after three days i was so sick i thought i was going to die of anaphylactic shock!
needless to say i tossed the vile stuff out, and have been homeophobic to this day. ;)
~ Peter
-
and of course Sherlock Holmes lived to be 103 by eating a daily dose of Royal Jelly!
I haven't read the stories of Sherlock Holmes for some years now, but I wouldn't take medical advice from Holmes given his other habits... ;D
In all seriousness, I am glad the honey is working for you.
Thank you for sharing photos of your coin - it is wonderful.
Peter
-
lol
I have a very large collection of Sherlock Holmes, and one of my books is titled 'Subcutaneously, My Dear Watson', which deals exclusively with those "other habits"...
https://www.librarything.com/catalog/Enodia&tag=Sherlock+Holmes&collection=-1
~ :evil:
-
this homely little coin is my newest...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-138622
... a diobol depicting a slightly different scene from Herakles' battle with the Nemean lion, and with a little owl besides.
~ Peter
-
Very interesting coin. Seems like an odd decision for such a detailed display to be featured on such a tiny coin!
I had never seen this reverse type below. There appears to be quite a few "Herakles fighting" scenes on coins. They are all much nicer than the comparatively poorly designed Hercules on my Caracalla denarius...
Peter
-
A neat coin
-
I just added a page to Numiswiki - created from the some of the early posts in this thread - https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Taras%20Drachms%20with%20Owl%20Left.
It is a wiki, which means that any of our members can make additions, changes and corrections. Feel free to improve the page. Don't worry, if you mess it up, we can restore any older version.
-
thanks for the link Joe. :)
here's the coin which sparked the discussion...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-89379
~ Peter
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here are a couple of coins I acquired last month, although computer problems have kept me from posting them until now.
this first one is a rare fraction which is SO tiny I hesitate to breathe over it! in fact it is now the smallest coin in my collection...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-140592
the second is a very rare bronze which is actually the last bronze coin listed in the Vlasto catalog...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-140591
the appearance of a decidedly Apollonian symbol seems a bit different at first, but those collectors fortunate enough to have Tarentine gold or very early Tarentine silver issues of the double incuse style will know that Apollo was venerated at Taras from its earliest days, probably coming to southern Italy with the original colonists from Sparta.
in any case I was glad to grab this one! 8)
enjoy, and don't forget to click Position + to view the gallery into its proper order.
~ Peter
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here's another Athena/Herakles diobol I just picked up, Vlasto 1315...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-141260
this one is from the D. Alighieri collection, the main reason I bought it. but I think the Athena portrait is quite pretty too.
enjoy!
~ Peter
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after a hiatus of almost 5 months I am FINALLY adding a new coin to my Taras collection!
this one is a didrachm from circa 300 BC and is actually one of the most common types of the series. however many of these are not well struck or well centered, and while slightly worn I think one is both. it also has some beautiful gold toning which does not show up well in the photo but is very pretty in hand.
see what you think...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-145591
(and remember to always click Position + to see my gallery in its proper order)
~ Peter
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I recently added this very tiny and rather homely silver fraction to my Taras collection...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-146030
although not beautiful it is rare and important to the collection, so it now has a loving home!
enjoy,
~ Peter
-
Great addition
-
Nice find, :) +++
Q.
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Thanks guys!
I have another diobol on the way... stay tuned. :)
- Peter
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as promised here is my newest diobol...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-146193
the reverse is the typical battle scene between Herakles and the Nemean lion, but the young Herakles head obverse is a bit unusual for Taras, which is why I wanted this one. it was sold as rare, but I think scarce is the best we can safely say.
still... :)
~ Peter
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Nice piece, +++
Q.
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thanks Q. :)
here is my latest, a drachm from the late 4th- early 3rd century BC...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-146592
[standard disclaimer] the image doesn't do it justice, and it really does look MUCH better in hand with nice dark toning. [/standard disclaimer]
it is also the 75th coin in my Taras collection!
~ Peter
-
Love the owl!
-
Hi, Peter, Congrats on the 75th coin in your Taras collection +++
It is really nice coin... ;)
Q.
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Hi Enodia,
Congratulations on reaching your 75th Taras coin! :)
I have an example of Vlasto 1054 (first coin):
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/gi_calb_taras_pt04.htm
It appears to be very similar to your coin (Vlasto 1055).
Meepzorp
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Thanks for sharing Peter, your words in description help me a lot.
Leo
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happy to help Leo! 8)
my newest addition from Taras is this half shekel from the period of Hannibal's occupation, and represents one of the last types ever minted at this great city. these are sometimes called "reduced nomoi", although I find that confusing since the standard didrachm was reduced by a gram at the time of Pyrrhus' campaigns 70 years earlier. the coin does look like a typical Tarentine didrachm from earlier in their history, but it is very thin and only half the weight.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-147453
~ Peter
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Cool coin Peter
-
Wow, what a fantastic thread/gallery ... congrats on adding the new coin to your already fabulous collection!
+++
-
Thanks mates!
- Peter
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Hi Enodia,
Nice coin! :)
It was struck with very artistic dies.
Meepzorp
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Thanks.
Yes, i think the style of this type is much finer than most of those from this period.
- Peter
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I won this coin at auction last week. it is a rare drachm or 'half nomos' from the beginning of the 5th century BC. Vlasto only lists 5 of these, two facing left and the other three (this type) all from the same dies. I've been after one of these for a long time, and finally landed this one!
check it out...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-148398
and don't forget to press the Position + button to see the entire gallery in its proper order.
~ Peter
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Hi Peter,
Congratulations on your latest acquisition!
Regards,
Peter
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I agree, Nice coin :) +++
Q.
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thank you gents!
yes, this really is an interesting coin. the style is different than most coins from Taras, sort of transitional type from the old late-archaic style of the earlier didrachms and fractions. it is peculiar denominationally too, as it only ran for 20 years or so and there wouldn't be another coin of this weight minted for over a hundred years (the Athena/Owl types of the late third and early second centuries).
I also received this diobol recently, a day late because my dog scared the mailman away...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-148426
this control mark is not listed for a diobol in the Vlasto catalog, nor any other reference for Taras, making it a rather scarce variety. i also haven't seen many online. I think that this Athena portrait is very pretty, and the dark cabinet toning really makes it look much better in hand.
~ Peter
-
Great piece,
Congratulation +++
Q.
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thanks Joe! :)
~ Peter
-
Congratulations Peter,
Nice patina - potentially find patina?
Peter
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I won this coin at auction last week. it is a rare drachm or 'half nomos' from the beginning of the 5th century BC. Vlasto only lists 5 of these, two facing left and the other three (this type) all from the same dies. I've been after one of these for a long time, and finally landed this one!
check it out...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-148398
and don't forget to press the Position + button to see the entire gallery in its proper order.
~ Peter
Congratulation, Peter. I found this type last spring. We are very fortunate that this type is easier to find than in the past (although it is still very scarce.)
-
thank you gents!
yes, this really is an interesting coin. the style is different than most coins from Taras, sort of transitional type from the old late-archaic style of the earlier didrachms and fractions. it is peculiar denominationally too, as it only ran for 20 years or so and there wouldn't be another coin of this weight minted for over a hundred years (the Athena/Owl types of the late third and early second centuries).
I also received this diobol recently, a day late because my dog scared the mailman away...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-148426
this control mark is not listed for a diobol in the Vlasto catalog, nor any other reference for Taras, making it a rather scarce variety. i also haven't seen many online. I think that this Athena portrait is very pretty, and the dark cabinet toning really makes it look much better in hand.
~ Peter
Nice pick. I never saw a Taentum diobol with crab mark before and only found this one online.
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=tarentum%2C+crab&category=1-2&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&images=1&thesaurus=1&order=1¤cy=usd&company=
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Thanks Leo, and the fact that Vlasto didn't have one definitely influenced my purchase.
Here's another diobol i bought at auction a few months ago...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-150945
It's not a great specimen, but it was really cheap. The wing device on the helmet (unfortunately not very clear here) is not rare, but it is less common than the usual Skylla or hippocamp types, and i didn't have one already.
Now I do! :)
- Peter
-
Congrats on adding something new to your specialized collection (yah, sometimes it's kinda cool to pick away and work-on adding different types to a narrow collection target)
Neat winged-helmet addition
-
My newest piece from Taras is this unusual and rather confusing diobol...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-151965
The auction house listed it as being from Teate due to the ethnic apparently reading TIATI, and Vlasto seems to verify that while claiming the coin was struck at Taras in alliance with Teate, a somewhat unusual circumstance in itself.
However I'm not thoroughly convinced that the ethnic actually reads TIATI, but could in fact be TAPA[N]. And the condition of this specimen doesn't seem to lend itself to a definitive confirmation, at least to me. All i do know for sure is that it is a very uncommon type regardless of origin.
Any opinions?
- Peter
-
I see TAPAN.
Merry Christmas!
-
Thanks Nick, and Merry Christmas to you and the family. I hope you have a wonderful holiday. :)
I was hoping to get some resolution once the coin was in hand, but the image is a good one and shows the coin as it actually is. And the 1416 plate in Vlasto doesn't really show the ethnic very well. Oddly there doesn't seem to be a TAPAN ethnic on any of the diobols in the Vlasto catalog, although it is often seen on the bronzes of Taras. Perhaps this is an unpublished variety?
curiously,
- Peter
-
I see TAPAN.
Merry Christmas!
+1
Q. :)
-
Thanks Nick, and Merry Christmas to you and the family. I hope you have a wonderful holiday. :)
I was hoping to get some resolution once the coin was in hand, but the image is a good one and shows the coin as it actually is. And the 1416 plate in Vlasto doesn't really show the ethnic very well. Oddly there doesn't seem to be a TAPAN ethnic on any of the diobols in the Vlasto catalog, although it is often seen on the bronzes of Taras. Perhaps this is an unpublished variety?
curiously,
- Peter
You would know better than me, but Wolfgang Fischer-Bossert would know better than anyone, so I recommend asking him. PM me and I’ll send his contact info.
If it is a new variety I hope you will submit to KOINON!
-
upon further review...
I've been going through SNG France and have found half a dozen or so diobols from this period which do have the TAPAN ethnic, although all of them are Attic helmet right obverse, and a couple are Herakles on top of the lion about to brain him with his club reverse. So it still appears to be an unpublished variety with the Corinthian helmet left/Herakles left.
Thanks for the contact information Nick. I'm going to research my own resources a little further, but i believe i will contact mr. Fischer-Bossert at some point and see if he is familiar with this type.
- Peter
-
I added this possibly unpublished fraction recently...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-158298
The phi is not recorded in any reference I have, although there is a variety with a racing torch as a control. I've tried to fit this coin into that attribution, but in hand it just doesn't look right.
- Peter
-
It does look a bit like a torch. Can you post a photo of the torch variety?
-
Sure Nick.
The best example I could find is from Leo's magnificent collection of Tarentine coins...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-139389
The top image is Leo's with the racing torch, the lower one is mine with the ambiguous phi.
I'm not entirely sold on the phi, but in hand it does not seem to have ever had a longer shaft below or a flame above.
- Peter
-
The above coin is my 81st coin from Taras, and with another on the way I've decided my Taras gallery was becoming a bit unruly, so I've split in into two separate galleries... Major Coins for the drachms and didrachms, and Minor Coins for the diobols, fractions and bronzes.
I hope this makes it easier to browse.
- Peter
-
Nice job Pete
-
Thanks Jay!
Yesterday I received this didrachm from Forvm...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-158399
This is a fairly rare variety signed by 'H', who only engraved a very few dies during what Sir Arthur Evans labelled The Age of Archytas (280-245 BC)., and this is the second H signature in my collection.
- Peter
-
Beautiful coins! +++
-
Thank you Arne, that's always nice to hear. ☺
- Peter
-
Nice piece, Peter,
;) :) +++
Joe/Q.
-
Here's a little Hemilitra I just picked up...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-159318
The left-facing dolphin is less common than the right-facing types, but the real reason I bought this coin is the provenance, which purports to be from the M.P Vlasto collection, although the dealer was not able tp provide documentation of that fact.
It is definitely not a plate coin though, but I still like it.
- Peter
-
Great little coin Peter
-
I like this small coin, Peter
😉👍
Joe/Q.
-
Thanks Joe.
I had another even smaller and scarcer that I wanted to post, but when it FINALLY arrived it was in four tiny pieces. 😓
I'm waiting now to hear how that will be resolved.
- Peter
-
Ah man, that's too bad.
-
Yeah, I'm pretty bummed.
- Peter
-
Bad news, :-[
Regards
Joe
-
The damaged coin was a shame, especially since I could only find one other V1551 sold in the past 10 years or so.
Oddly enough another one popped up in the meantime, so i grabbed it up as a consolation prize. I only hope the refund process goes smoothly.
This new one is struck on a broader flan so its diminutive size is not quite so apparent, but it is pretty small...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-159492
And once again it has the advantage of a provenance.
- Peter
-
I'd say that's a pretty good consolation prize!
-
It is, but oddly, since I was able to replace it so easily I had to change the original designation of 'rare' to very scarce.
I've continued to sub-divide my Taras gallery to make it more easily maneuverable by separating out all the diobols into their own file.
- Peter
-
Love the gallery of little Taras coins. It stands on its own nicely. And to think I once devalued such small denominations. I'm starting to get all clammy...
I'm still boggled that a coin could be mangled in shipment :'(.
Anaximander
-
I always get a thrill when a new coin arrives, a Christmas-like excitement when I open up the package to reveal my new treasure.
It sure disappointed me to find this inside!
Still, after more than thirty years of collecting ancient coins this is the first time this has happened, although one did go missing in the mail about five years back.
- Peter
-
Drat!!! Sorry for your loss, Peter. Crystalization is not always apparent until it's too late. A friend of mine recently had a piece of a rare coin break-off just by rubbing some surface crud with his fingernail. He had no prior sign that the coin was crystalized.
-
Thanks Michael.
As I said it is disappointing, but I suppose I need to see the glass as half full. Two coins lost over 32 years is a pretty good track record I guess.
Still haven't heard back from the auction house though.
- Peter
-
😎
-
It seems I've corrected my technical difficulties and have my access back. (fingers crossed)
I was finally able to resolve the issue with the broken coin, finally geting a credit which I used to pick up a new diobol, and added a second one while I was gone as well.
I'll be uploading them soon, so stay tuned...
- Peter
-
Here's one of my two newest diobols, this one with a wreath decorating Athena's helmet, a scarcer but certainly not rare variety...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=21312&pos=0
- Peter
-
I always get a thrill when a new coin arrives, a Christmas-like excitement when I open up the package to reveal my new treasure.
It sure disappointed me to find this inside!
Still, after more than thirty years of collecting ancient coins this is the first time this has happened, although one did go missing in the mail about five years back.
- Peter
Huhh, Peter, it is very unpleasant, unfortunate ...
Joe/Q.
-
Thanks Joe. It was very frustrating, but at least it closed as well as can be hoped for.
- Peter
-
Well it seems that my access issues are not resolved after all, which I'm sure is due to my phone just being too outdated. I can get into the gallery easier, and to the board from there, but my posts usually time out before they transmit.
Anyway...
I've added two coins since my last post, this diobol with rosettes on Athena's helmet...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-162705
I will eventually write something about the rosettes, but right now I just want to gey this posted before I crash.
The other is a lovely didrahm from period VIII...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-164693
There was another available which was centered a little better but not struck as well, and since these 3rd century didrachms are typically very mushy I chose this one. I like the torch too.
I hope you like them. ☺
- Peter
edit; Yay, it posted!
-
Two wonderful additions. I don't know which one I like more!
-
Very nice indeed
-
Thanks guys!
- Peter
-
Both, nice addition +++
Joe
-
Here's another new didrachm...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-166585
I really love this obverse, but it is a little rough. I couldn't afford a nicer one but it really does look much better in hand.
The engraver was obviously inspired by a fifth century stater from Ambracia, which shows Bellerophon removing a pebble from the hoof of Pegasus.
Maybe one day I'll get one of those too! 😎
~ Peter
-
That really is a cool obverse. Nice find Peter.
-
Nice addition Peter. I hope you write an essay on Taras coins someday--you know them so well.
-
Thanks Nick.
I'm good at research but less so at making a comprehensive statement. Maybe someday.
~ Peter
-
Here's another new didrachm, this one from an earlier period...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-166803
While this isn't my oldest didrachm it is my oldest horseman. I still need a Period I didrachm before I finish collecting, but after this latest splurge (I still have two more coins on the way!) that may be a while down the road.
In the meantime...
~ Peter
-
I love those didrachms
-
I aquired a few coins while my old phone was dying, and I finally got around to posting them.
The first up is a didrachm of Period 1, my first example from this period...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-168304
And here's another didrachm, this one from just prior to the coming of Pyrrhus...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-168303
Next up is a very early and very tiny fraction. I already have a similar hemilitron but with the head facing right...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-168302
Here's another fraction which I picked up at the end of 2020 (after a great deal of hassle!)...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-167543
And finally this beautiful and unusual didrachm bought at the same time...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-167540
I hope you like them! 🙂
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I love those didrachms
Et tu, Jay? Et tu?
Tarantine didrachms are just so massively collectible. Those dolphins, horses, and owls are amiable, and you see different series over time.
I love Enodia's Tarantine gallery, with an abundance of coins both archaic and classical, and in such great condition.
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I agree, congrats, Peter,
So many nice collectible coins +++
Joe/Q.
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Thank you gentlemen. It is nice to have one's efforts appreciated, especially from such knowledgable collectors as yourselves. 😉
~ Peter
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Here are a couple of new diobols, both with Athena facing left. While left-facing are not as common they are not necessarily rare. However both of these could be considered scarce due to the unusual helmet decorations, or in the case of the first coin no adornment at all...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-169605
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-169606
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Love these small coins
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I agree, great little coins 👍👍👍
Joe
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I just received this very rare and unusual bronze. It was sold as being from Taras, and it may be. But even Vlasto was doubtful, believing it to have possibly been minted at Kroton in Bruttium. ANS agrees, attributing to Kroton, while Copenhagen claims Taras.
I'm leaning towards Kroton due to the octopus device which was not uncommon there while being virtually unknown at Taras, but I'm placing in my Tarentine gallery because of its Vlasto number...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=171766
~ Peter
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After nearly a year I've finally added a new coin to my collection. Retirement is nice but there is little money left for coins. However I couldn't resist the price of this diobol type which I have wanted for some time...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=176436
This type is scarce with Athena typically facing left, but becomes even more so when She is facing right, as here. Vlasto had two specimens (incorrectly described), but this type is unpublished in SNG France, Cote or McGill, and HGC is so generic that I didn't bother to include it here.
I hope you like it,
~ Peter
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Well the retirement induced buying slow down hasn't worked out so well, lol.
I just acquired this early and short-lived didrachm from the 5th century BC...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=177001
~ Peter
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Well the retirement induced buying slow down hasn't worked out so well, lol.
Ha, that's an understatement!
I added this obol I won at auction last month. It's an ugly and damaged little thing but very rare, and I would have bid on this one even if I had maintained my budget discipline. The flan crack had me worried though, but it seems to be stable...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=177205
And I have two more on the way!
~ Peter
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Here's a new Dionysian obol, featuring Athena's owl peeking around the lower edge.
Most of these kantharos obols found online are greatly overpriced and ive never understood why. They are not terribly rare for the most part. Alas 🤔
In any case i didn't pay those prices for this one, but I still think it's kinda cute...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=180155
~ Peter
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Lovely little coin Peter, I have a couple of these as well
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Thanks Jay, the little owl intrigued me as they appear on every denomination of Tarentine coinage.
~ Peter
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Here is my latest acquisition, a late period didrachm...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=181053
This coin, while not particularly inspired artistically, has provided me with an interesting attribution conundrum regarding the distaff and a confusing cornucopia variety.
~ Peter
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The McClean Collection has both varieties, I believe, assuming you can navigate the obverse's hand-held objects (variously javelin, whip, or nothing? with reins in left or right hands).
#663. Horseman galloping r., wearing cuirasse; r. arm raised above head; in left hand, reins. / Cantharus in extended r. hand; cornucopiae in left, raised to side. Amphora. (plate 25.20).
#664. The same, but whip in r. hand. / The same, with distaff in place of cornucopiae. (no plate).
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That's cool Anaximander, thank you!
It seems the McClean Collection is not available online. Is there any way you can post a scan?
While I'm not a big fan of HGC, it does usually have a fairly comprehensive list of the various devices, but only the one for this coin. So thanks again for removing yet one more thing for me to obsess over. 🥴
~ Peter
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Ask and ye shall receive...
McClean Collection (by SW Grose). Extract of one page of text and one plate is mid-resolution (we'll see if they post). I have higher resolution if needed!
Edit: Added a max. resolution of pl.26 20 (#663).
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Sir, you are a prince among men!
It's hard to tell from the image, but it seems that plate 20 is also a distaff, although the text says cornucopia. Can you tell better in hand?
~ Peter
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Well spotted! You are correct; the image is that of a distaff, not a cornucopiae.
So an errant description in Weber, and we'll have to reference this one as Weber I #663 corr. (distaff misdescribed as cornucopiae).
That's surprising, since the next coin (#664, no photo) is described as having a distaff, so you'd think the immediate juxtaposition would help sort that out. I do not believe the descriptions were reversed.
I added a higher-resolution image of just the one coin, #663, to my earlier post. Perhaps some more eyes would help.
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I'll hold off on that attribution for the time being, but at least we have one source that recognizes both types. That should keep me from going totally Monk ("It's a jungle out there...").
~ Peter
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I almost missed this little coin thinking I already had one. This series has many variations but it turns out I didn't have a head left/left.
Until now...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=182601
This is a scarcer variey, Vlasto citing just the one specimen.
~ Peter
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A couple more fractions added this week, one a rare variety.
The first is an early hemiobol featuring a skyphos (cup) with the handle right, a more common (and unfortunately lower grade) example than the left-handled specimen already in my gallery...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=182761
Next is a later and much scarcer hemiobol with winged Eros riding the dolphin, which may be the only Tarentine coin featuring the son of Aphrodite. However the image of Eros appears quite frequently in other aspects of the cities' art, particularly votives and vase paintings. This is probably a nod to Sparta, the mother city, where Aphrodite's cult was well imbedded...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=182760
~ Peter
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Another fraction, this one with a provenance...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=183085
I actually bid on the wrong coin as I already have one like this with an even better provenance (Vlasto himself!), although they are from different dies. However I wanted another fraction from the auction but placed the bid incorrectly (d'oh). And of course the little rarity I meant to buy may never be offered again.
*sigh*
~ Peter
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Been there, done that (doh!) (facepalm).
Must say, though, that's really a lovely coin, fraction or not.
I didn't know that you count the "teeth" of scallop shells. And I thought I knew everything...
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I thouht so too!
But it is a lovely little thing so I'm not too disappointed. Still...
~ Peter
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No new coins sadly, but with retirement comes the project I've been putting off...
re-cataloging my collection.
Serendipitously a new set of books has come out this past year which is now the definitive study of Tarentine coinage. So I have had my nose to the books for the past week and I'm about 1/3 of the way through, mostly the easy ones.
What is exciting is going through all these endless varieties and finding my own coins illustrated. I now have 4 (so far) D'Andrea plate coins!
So my gallery will be a bit confused for the next month or so, but I'm sure no one will notice. After Taras I'll tackle the rest of the gallery with the goal of having it finished by the end of the year.
~ Peter
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I'm jealous of your D'Andrea et al. books! It seems like they have much more narrative explanation than the major collection vols., Vlasto & Cote, and it's nice they are in English (I read German very slowly, so trying to work through all of Fischer-Bossert would take me ages).
I just got Ravel's Vlasto Collection (reprint) a few weeks ago, and I've already seen a couple of the Vlasto coins not noted as such at current auctions (others must've noticed as well, because I was convincingly outbid). I've been wondering how many D'Andrea "plate coins" have sold unnoticed in the same period.
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I'm still waiting for the third volume of the catalog to become available. The D'Andrea site says it has been released and has a link to their shop but it doesn't work. I'm at the point with my re-cataloging where I need it.
The format is a bit awkward and I wish their was a symbol index like Vlasto. Also the Diobols book does not cross-reference the other three volumes, which would be very helpful.
Since the data is drawn from auction records there would be a pretty good chance of a buyer finding a coin from their collection, especially in the Diobols volume.
This coin is a plate coin from Vlasto, 'The Coins of Tarentum From VI Century BC To 350 BC' and 'The Diobols Of Tarentum'...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=129324
~ Peter
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I contacted Alberto D'Andrea a few days ago and he said that Volume 3 has been delayed but should be out in October. I can't wait!
The good news is I am up to 9 plate coins so far. 🙂
~ Peter
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It's been a long time since I've posted a new coin here, but a surprise windfall on my tax return provided me with the means to payoff some bills, get new tires, etc. But instead I bought a new coin!
This one is a later didrachm that was priced nicely and the cool little bucranium sealed the deal for me. A Dionysian reference perhaps?
Have a look...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=186313
~ Peter
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I contacted Alberto D'Andrea a few days ago and he said that Volume 3 has been delayed but should be out in October. I can't wait!
The good news is I am up to 9 plate coins so far. 🙂
Did the third (and final?) volume of D'Andrea get issued? And is there a Numiswiki entry for these titles? I've not seen anything for this author and would welcome additional information. I was pleased to finally get an Obol Int'l reprint of Vlasto (by O. Ravel), but something more up-to-date would be helpful.
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Yes!
I have all four volumes now and I really like them. I spent the holidays updating my Taras collection, at least as far as dating which is now much more specific. The attention to fractionals is unprecedented in my knowledge, and the diobols are looked into quite deeply, both from a numismatic point of view as well as the economic role this series had on the entire region.
I found a few errors, but nothing major. One description was of the wrong plate, etc. One interesting entry showed the plate coin as being gleaned from an auction in 2019 but which has been in my collection since 2013ish.
Giving up the Vlasto priority was a huge jump for me, but I'm happier now that the chronology is sorted. Now I still need to rewrite all those descriptions.
Being retired means new coins will be fewer and much further between, but the upside is I can finally get caught up on all my gallery homework. (if I could still read. When did they start using smaller, fuzzier type?)
~ Peter
Oh, I'm up to 17 plate coins!
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That's a lot of plate coins for just one person ;). And with that hoard of yours, the coins of Taras, I can see your wanting all those books. For me, lacking that depth with just seven coins, not so much. I've got HN Italy and Vlasto to lean on. I'll say that it's been fun matching up my coins with dies found in the various collections. I can't image doing so with more than 100 coins :o
Here's what I've gleaned:
Authors: Alberto D'Andrea, Marco Miglioli, Giuseppe Tafuri, Enrico Vonghia.
Publisher: Edizioni D'Andrea s.n.c. di Alberto D'Andrea & Christian Andreani. Bari, Italy.
The complete project on the Tarentine coinage provides for the publication of four volumes: the first three are only on the coins (from the beginning to the Roman conquest), while the fourth deals with the typological, epigraphic and figurative aspects connected to the coinage.
The coins of Tarentum from the beginning to the Roman conquest. (Bari, Edizioni D'Andrea, 2022-2024)
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Here's the rest of my reply (I have technical difficulties posting. Error 403, like 50 times)
1. From VI century to 350 BC (2022) 366 pp.
2. From 350 BC to 281 BC (2023) 340 pp.
3. From 281 BC to 209 BC (?) 388 pp.
4. TBA
See also:
The Diobols of Tarentum (2022) 238 pp.
The Diobols of Tarentum in the National Archaeological Museum of Naples. (2023) 124 pp.
Sound right?
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That's about right. The 4th volume is an in depth study of the diobol series alone and probably necessary only if one specializes in this series. However it is a fascinating study of the economic impact these little coins had on the entire region during the late 4th and 3rd centuries BC. This is also the cheapest book in the series (about $80).
Overall I can't recommend this set enough, but in your case I would stick with Vlasto, or maybe SNG France (Calabria). Seven coins may not be worth the expense. But for someone like Leo, with his beautiful and quite substantial Taras collection, I think it will prove essential.
Anaximander if you would like the newer dating for your coins I'd be more than happy to look them up for you.
~ Peter
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this also arrived today...
Taras: Its History and Coinage, by George C. Brauer.
i'm in the middle of a Sharpe novel at the moment so it'll be a day or two before i can really dive into this, but as soon as the musket smoke clears... :)
~ Peter
Great coins!
I know I'm quoting a 12-year-old post, but I thought it was interesting because just recently I've been going through Cornwell's Sharpe novels. I'm on the fifth one and really enjoying them so far.
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Are you reading the 'prequels' first? I think these are one the absolute best in the military historical fiction genre, right up there with O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin books.
So have you seen the Sharpe TV series? 16 made for TV movies from the '90s starring Sean Bean and Daragh O'Malley. Quite a lot of fun. 🙂
~ Peter
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Are you reading the 'prequels' first? I think these are one the absolute best in the military historical fiction genre, right up there with O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin books.
So have you seen the Sharpe TV series? 16 made for TV movies from the '90s starring Sean Bean and Daragh O'Malley. Quite a lot of fun. 🙂
~ Peter
I'm not sure...haven't heard of any prequels. I started with Sharpe's Tiger - set in India during the war against the Tipu Sultan. Listening to them on audio, by the way. Right now I am finishing up Sharpe's Prey (Seige of Copenhagen)
I haven't seen any of the TV series (don't have a TV) but I'm sure they'd do well in that medium!
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Yes, Sharpe's Tiger was written as a prequel and is the chronological beginning.
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Anaximander if you would like the newer dating for your coins I'd be more than happy to look them up for you.
I'd welcome any insights on my possibly-not-so-very-early issue of |Vlasto 133 (https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=155921). Sold as 500-480 BC, consistent with HN Italy #827, Wolfgang Fischer-Bossert 109 allegedly argues for 470-450 BC. I don't have Fischer-Bossert, much less d'Andrea.
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Not too different.
465-455 BC
O; Naked male riding a dolphin left with outstretched arms, pecten shell below; all within linear border.
R; Winged hippocamp left.
R3
D'Andrea Series VII, Type 96; Vlasto 133; Fischer-Bossert Group 7, 107, 109, 116; SNG Copenhagen 776; SNG Australia 194; SNG France 1600-1601; SNG Oxford 208
Hope this helps.
~ Peter
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Thanks, Peter, that's great information. You're a scholar and a gentleman.
The timeline is narrowed and the attributions expanded. I hadn't consulted SNG Oxford IA (I don't have that volume) or SNG Australia, and once SNG.org (http://www.sylloge-nummorum-graecorum.org/) is back up, I'll validate that reference and see if, by chance, there's a die match.
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You're welcome. I rarely get a chance to hone my chops so any time I can talk Taras I'm there!
Warning though, that attribution correspondence is straight from the book. The only ones I can verify from my own library are Vlasto, F-B and France, although I have found D'Andrea to check out reliably so far.
I might just check your other ones too, to help justify the cost of the books. 🙂
~ Peter
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I'll reply here to your thread on my gallery, but only because I am getting the dread '403 Forbidden' error message when replying to posts there.
That's brilliant! Yes, please, check those dates. I've relied on Vlasto and other, rather dated, materials, and much appreciate the up-to-date scholarship. D'Andrea is proving to be most useful. I was unfamiliar with Cote, though it seems to be, like Pozzi, an auction catalog from the 1920s. That's seriously specialist literature.
SNG.org is back up. I can confirm Vlasto 589 as SNG Oxford 287, but I'm seeing something different for my Vlasto 133 than what's shown as SNG Oxford 208. I'm probably barking up the wrong volume of SNG Oxford (I believe I'm looking at SNG Ashmolean volume IA).
Vlasto 589 is my Vlasto plate coin. I may just have the one to your many plate coins, but hey, I've got one! :laugh:
In checking Vlasto 594-96, the magistrate listed is ΔAΙ (same as my coin). Am I missing something?
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I'm at the park with Repo but I'll double check Vlasto when I get home. It's an original so the pages are a bit tan and slightly brittle, and of course the plates are, well...
As far as plate coins, I have no didrachms from Vlasto’s collection, so I am envious! 😉