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Author Topic: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!  (Read 94762 times)

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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2015, 07:06:53 pm »
Quote from: Carausius on October 23, 2015, 12:48:06 pm
Sounds like a good deal to me Carausius. Please get a hold of me via email to arrange. I'll be very careful in scanning it before I send it to you.

Hi Ras - did you mean me or Carausius in this message? I didn't read anything that sounded like a proposal in Carausius' messages (forgive me if something was arranged offline).

Andrew

Ras meant you, Andrew. I've got my Faelten.

I've sent Ras an offlist message, and dug out a group of nine Glendinings catalogues from 1965 to 1979 mostly illustrating areas of ancients that are of lesser interest to me eg archaics, eastern Greek, Byzantines, later Roman etc. A symbiotic trade I hope, given I'd have probably never bought Faelten and Ras would likely never have bought the Glendinings, yet both value what we are getting for free!

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2015, 06:06:47 pm »
Each plate page has a rice paper separator to prevent damage.

Ras' reference to tissue guards between the Faelten catalogue plate pages got me thinking.  I understand that the original purpose of tissue guards was to prevent fresh plate ink from smudging, sticking and bleeding onto the adjacent plate.  Once the plates had dried, the tissue guards had likely outlived their usefulness.  More importantly, in my old catalogues that still have their original tissue guards, the tissue paper is often browned well-beyond any browning to the plate paper.  So, I assume that the tissue paper generally contained more acids that the typical plate paper.  This makes me wonder whether the old tissue has become a risk to the longer term storage of the plates.  Does acid from the tissue paper pose any risk to the adjacent plates?  Is it a best practice to eliminate the tissue guards or (if tissue provides any continuing benefit) replace them with fresh, acid-free tissue, when rebinding?  

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2015, 07:47:06 pm »
Quote from: Carausius on October 25, 2015, 06:06:47 pm
Each plate page has a rice paper separator to prevent damage.

Ras' reference to tissue guards between the Faelten catalogue plate pages got me thinking.  I understand that the original purpose of tissue guards was to prevent fresh plate ink from smudging, sticking and bleeding onto the adjacent plate.  Once the plates had dried, the tissue guards had likely outlived their usefulness.  More importantly, in my old catalogues that still have their original tissue guards, the tissue paper is often browned well-beyond any browning to the plate paper.  So, I assume that the tissue paper generally contained more acids that the typical plate paper.  This makes me wonder whether the old tissue has become a risk to the longer term storage of the plates.  Does acid from the tissue paper pose any risk to the adjacent plates?  Is it a best practice to eliminate the tissue guards or (if tissue provides any continuing benefit) replace them with fresh, acid-free tissue, when rebinding?  

Here's a relevant page from the Smithsonian's conservation website:

http://www.si.edu/mci/english/learn_more/taking_care/acidfree.html

It seems your concerns are on point.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2015, 08:40:57 pm »
Quote from: Carausius on October 25, 2015, 06:06:47 pm
Each plate page has a rice paper separator to prevent damage.

Ras' reference to tissue guards between the Faelten catalogue plate pages got me thinking.  I understand that the original purpose of tissue guards was to prevent fresh plate ink from smudging, sticking and bleeding onto the adjacent plate.  Once the plates had dried, the tissue guards had likely outlived their usefulness.  More importantly, in my old catalogues that still have their original tissue guards, the tissue paper is often browned well-beyond any browning to the plate paper.  So, I assume that the tissue paper generally contained more acids that the typical plate paper.  This makes me wonder whether the old tissue has become a risk to the longer term storage of the plates.  Does acid from the tissue paper pose any risk to the adjacent plates?  Is it a best practice to eliminate the tissue guards or (if tissue provides any continuing benefit) replace them with fresh, acid-free tissue, when rebinding?  

Here's a relevant page from the Smithsonian's conservation website:

http://www.si.edu/mci/english/learn_more/taking_care/acidfree.html

It seems your concerns are on point.


Thanks!  I became particularly concerned about this when I examined the plates in my recently acquired copy of Sambon - Martinetti & Nervegna (1907).  The catalogue had most of the original tissue guards, but several were missing.  I noticed that plates WITHOUT tissue guards were in slightly better condition than those WITH tissue guards!  The margins on the tissue-less plates were brighter and the images seemed a bit fresher.  The tissues were quite brown, and long-term exposure to that can't be good for anything.

Having researched further on some book collector sites, archival (ph neutral) glassine pages are recommended as a replacement for tissue guards. However, I'm not convinced that any replacements are really needed for our catalogues.  In fact, I generally find the guards to be a nuisance when flipping through plates!

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #79 on: October 26, 2015, 04:42:38 am »
Hi Cara,

Thanks for bringing this up. I often noticed this too. The tissue paper in old books/catalogs is often very brown. I had always assumed that it is best to leave things alone and to try to keep things in their original condition. But this sheds light on the subject.

Meepzorp

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #80 on: October 26, 2015, 06:53:53 am »
There's an amusing paradox here. Catalogues with intact tissues have been handled less and are thus usually better preserved overall, and command higher prices as a result, than those where the tissues have been torn out or disintegrated. Even though the latter might have technically clearer photos. There's also a dilemma - I'm not inclined to tear stuff out of my catalogues given the wider damage that might cause. And a little longer after 80 years in place won't make a difference. So
- when I rebind I'll have the tissues removed
- I'll still continue to favour unseen catalogues with intact tissue for the reasons above.

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #81 on: October 26, 2015, 07:43:38 am »
There's an amusing paradox here. Catalogues with intact tissues have been handled less and are thus usually better preserved overall, and command higher prices as a result, than those where the tissues have been torn out or disintegrated. Even though the latter might have technically clearer photos. There's also a dilemma - I'm not inclined to tear stuff out of my catalogues given the wider damage that might cause. And a little longer after 80 years in place won't make a difference. So
- when I rebind I'll have the tissues removed
- I'll still continue to favour unseen catalogues with intact tissue for the reasons above.

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for clearing this up. That's a great way of approaching this subject matter.

Meepzorp

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #82 on: October 26, 2015, 07:55:17 am »
- when I rebind I'll have the tissues removed
- I'll still continue to favour unseen catalogues with intact tissue for the reasons above.

I agree on both points.

Offline Pekka K

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #83 on: October 26, 2015, 08:18:30 am »

Here is fron page of my Old Auction Catalog from France.
Plates contain 2 fold outs of RR cast bronze.

Pekka K

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #84 on: October 26, 2015, 08:29:59 am »

Here is fron page of my Old Auction Catalog from France.
Plates contain 2 fold outs of RR cast bronze.

Pekka K

Hi Pekka,

Cover is interesting as its a house that rarely sells ancients but could we (or I) see those two plates please! If you could scan and contact me via PM that would be great. Or drop them below a reply?

Andrew

Offline Pekka K

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #85 on: October 26, 2015, 10:05:14 am »
Here are PL3 & PL4 combined of 2 scans each:

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #86 on: October 26, 2015, 10:38:00 am »
Thanks Pekka, two great plates. None of my coins I think but I'll have a later look.

The arrangement with Ras makes me think there may be other scopes for international swaps. I've various stuff. A duplicate original Haeberlin for example. And some less rare.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #87 on: October 26, 2015, 11:06:15 am »
Thanks for sharing, Pekka.  Is a weight given for the bull/wheel Aes Grave (lot 17__)? It resemble my example  of the type.

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #88 on: October 26, 2015, 11:22:06 am »
Must be 176, ... 122 gr. 65. Patine vert. T.B.

Pekka K

Edit: 2 newspaper clippings

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #89 on: October 26, 2015, 11:47:09 am »
Must be 176, ... 122 gr. 65. Patine vert.

Thanks!  A bit heavier than my example, but identical style and the same "dimple" at 9 o'clock on the reverse. Possibly cast from the same moulds. I will need to closely compare them when I get home tonight.


The arrangement with Ras makes me think there may be other scopes for international swaps. I've various stuff. A duplicate original Haeberlin for example. And some less rare.

Interesting that you picked today to announce your duplicate Haeberlin. Just last week, I bought an original Haeberlin and it arrived in the post today.  I have owned a high quality reprint for over a year, and I was satisfied with the reprint until our recent "40 Asses" thread prompted me to look at the reprint plate with a magnifier - pixels made the image pretty worthless.  I may still keep the reprint for general use; plus it has the list of estimates and prices realized, which can be interesting trivia.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #90 on: October 26, 2015, 03:28:50 pm »
Quote from: Carausius on October 26, 2015, 11:47:09 am
The arrangement with Ras makes me think there may be other scopes for international swaps. I've various stuff. A duplicate original Haeberlin for example. And some less rare.

Interesting that you picked today to announce your duplicate Haeberlin. Just last week, I bought an original Haeberlin and it arrived in the post today.  I have owned a high quality reprint for over a year, and I was satisfied with the reprint until our recent "40 Asses" thread prompted me to look at the reprint plate with a magnifier - pixels made the image pretty worthless.  I may still keep the reprint for general use; plus it has the list of estimates and prices realized, which can be interesting trivia.

Oops. Sorry! I sort of assumed that you - as with most key RR fiends - would have it already. It's not actually on offer - I don't wish to sell it for cash. But were something to offer me something perhaps rarer albeit maybe with fewer plates, or a bunch of interesting and older FPLs or something else I couldn't so easily find...

The plates on some original Haeberlins are pretty faded though they perform well under magnification. The best reprint has clear plates but perhaps pixelated as you suggest.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #91 on: November 04, 2015, 11:40:47 am »
I’ve acquired a few nice catalogues over the last few weeks.
1.   Cahn/Hess –Haeberlin Collection (1933).  An original of this important sale in a decent quality cloth binding.  I mentioned previously that I already owned a high-quality, limited production reprint of this catalogue (Lugano, 1977; 300 copies printed). Comparing this original to the reprint, I am very impressed with the reprint. The paper quality of the reprint is much better than the original (the reprint is nearly twice as thick as the original because of the heavier paper in the reprint), with no browning/yellowing in the reprint. The reprint also has the lists of estimates and prices realized bound in (both are missing from my original).  With the naked eye, the reprint plates are nearly identical to the original in quality; only under magnification do the original plates really stand-out. The original plates magnify like an actual coin in hand. The reprint plates are heavily pixilated under magnification. So, I’ll keep them both, and probably favor the reprint for general use.
2.   Dura/Sambon – Borghesi Collection (1881). This is an important, early sale featuring two of the earliest plates of ancient coins in an auction catalogue. Andrew McCabe’s website describes it well here (including a photo of a plate) - http://andrewmccabe.ancients.info/RRAuctions.html
They must have used very high quality paper for this catalogue, as every page looks as fresh and white as the day it was printed – there’s not even the slightest hint of yellowing or browning (even the tissue guards look fresh).
3.   P & P Santamaria – Brunacci Collection (1958). I’ve tried to acquire this catalogue twice before and failed. Third time’s a charm, and I now have it in hand.
4.   M. RattoCollection E. H. Schwing (1932). I bought this catalogue on a whim, without researching it first. Had I first read Andrew’s website description, I likely would have skipped this catalogue.  It contains several high quality plates of aes grave, though the coins are not of tremendous quality or rarity, i.e. mostly prow types in F-VF condition.  At least there are also a couple plates of decent quality Republican silver.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #92 on: November 04, 2015, 07:16:39 pm »
Ras' 1938 Faelten arrived today, and as soon as Ras remembers to share his address with me (!!), some Glendinings will be going the other direction. This Faelten is indeed a better than usually preserved example. Despite the ghoulish photography (from coins rather than casts), there's enough information from typical fingerprints such as edge dings or border dot intersections or offstrikes to identify potential matches for 90% of coins if examined very slowly and in good light. That's a heck of a lot of conditionality, but is sometimes rewarded by the high quality of the coins themselves. Oddly the one area where casts are not always reliable - edge shape - is ok here. My intent is to peruse it, very slowly, and in good light, perhaps even with my own coins for comparison in hand.

I attach a sample below that illustrates my comments. Note one of the Brutus reverses is upside down. Still very grateful to have these, there are upwards of 200 high quality Republican coins in the catalogue, and to be frank I'm hoping some of my ex-RBW coins might stem from here given US provenances.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #93 on: November 04, 2015, 07:49:56 pm »
Despite the ghoulish photography (from coins rather than casts), there's enough information from typical fingerprints such as edge dings or border dot intersections or offstrikes to identify potential matches for 90% of coins if examined very slowly and in good light.

I agree, it would not be easy to discover a lost Faelten provenance!  Of course, provenance discovery is only one reason I buy these catalogues. Another reason is to confirm a stated provenance; and for that, the Faelten catalogue plates would suffice without too much effort.  Although, I cannot remember ever seeing an "ex Faelten" coin for sale.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #94 on: November 04, 2015, 08:14:33 pm »
Quote from: Carausius on November 04, 2015, 07:49:56 pm
Despite the ghoulish photography (from coins rather than casts), there's enough information from typical fingerprints such as edge dings or border dot intersections or offstrikes to identify potential matches for 90% of coins if examined very slowly and in good light.

I agree, it would not be easy to discover a lost Faelten provenance!  Of course, provenance discovery is only one reason I buy these catalogues. Another reason is to confirm a stated provenance; and for that, the Faelten catalogue plates would suffice without too much effort.  Although, I cannot remember ever seeing an "ex Faelten" coin for sale.

The single appearance of Faelten on acsearch or cng relates to a copy of this catalogue that sold in 2007 for $18, and was described as dog-eared and delaminated. My copy is pretty smart with intact snow-white tissue guards.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #95 on: December 04, 2015, 10:05:05 am »
A still-growing group of nicely bound auction catalogues on my shelf...

Offline Molinari

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #96 on: December 04, 2015, 11:44:02 am »
Looks nice!

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #97 on: December 17, 2015, 04:40:41 pm »
I hit a lucky streak today - found 2 Haeberlins, a Ryan (Glendining 1952) and a Sydenham (Ratto). More later. Types were an aes grave as (Sydenham), Cr.405 Sors; Era to (Haeberlins), Antony/Octavia Cistophorus (Ryan). The four coins were cheaply priced even without the provenanced, so this has probably been a profitable day.

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #98 on: December 17, 2015, 04:48:54 pm »
Congrats, Andrew.  I don't provenance hunt currently, but if any of you come across my Aes Grave As, I hope you'll let me know:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-95173

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #99 on: December 17, 2015, 05:22:52 pm »
I hit a lucky streak today - found 2 Haeberlins, a Ryan (Glendining 1952) and a Sydenham (Ratto).

Nice. New acquisitions or random finds?


Congrats, Andrew.  I don't provenance hunt currently, but if any of you come across my Aes Grave As, I hope you'll let me know:

You've already got a pre-2011 auction provenance on that As, which is the critical point for avoiding MOU issues.  Anything more would be gravy - but very fine gravy.  Incidentally, your Aes Grave has a flan characteristic that I've noticed on many Janus/prow aes grave asses. Specifically, there is the appearance of a crack across the bottom quarter of the coin, visible on both sides, it runs below Janus' neck. I've seen this nearly identical characteristic on many asses. It almost looks like the coin has been repaired, but I'm sure that's not the case as I've seen it so many times before.  Not sure if it is caused by cracked molds (casting equivalent of a die break) or some temperature problem with the casting.  Maybe a good issue for a separate thread...

 

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