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Author Topic: Gold found!  (Read 1661 times)

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Offline Rupert

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Gold found!
« on: November 10, 2007, 02:20:42 pm »
Well, a little gold anyway. Lately I bought a small lot of three coins, a very obvious modern reproduction of a Syracuse decadrachm, a really nice fourré Rapublican denarius, and this fellow. It's gold over a bronze core, and from the portrait and type, it seems to be Constantine IV, with his brothers standing beside a cross on the reverse.

What's puzzling me is: The coin weighs 2.37 g, a little more than a semissis, it's rather thick and only 14 mm in diameter. The type, however, is that of a solidus, as far as I can tell (sorry, I'm not a Byzantine specialist at all, but I think the semisses just had a plain cross on the reverse). The coin is not clipped, the edges are still clad with gold. So it's quite the wrong type for a semissis forgery, and quite the wrong size and weight for a solidus forgery. What coin does this imitate, or why was it made like this??

Thanks in advance,

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline Pep

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Re: Gold found!
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2007, 09:57:44 am »
What a great yet puzzling find!

Yes, this is an imitation of a solidus of Constantine IV (Class III in the Dumbarton Oaks Catalog).  The reference mint would be Carthage, the diameter and lack of reverse legend point to it.  However, the weight is light since it isn't gold all the way through (would be in the low 4g range if it was).  Solidi from Carthage at this time were low in diameter but thick to make up for it (globular).

I can't see or make out any possible characters to the left or right of Heraclius or Tiberius nor can I make out anything below the base.  So, the best I can do is Sear 1188 (DO 43), Sear 1189 (DO 44-7) or Sear 1189A (DO —).  The date range for all these would be from ca. AD 675 to 682.  The rest of the details are:

Obverse:D3: :Greek_Omicron::Greek_Nu::reversedS: :Greek_Upsilon_2::C::C: (or similar - I can't make anything out on your coin)
Bust facing (or three-quarter face to right), with short beard, wearing helmet and cuirass, and holding spear and shield.

Reverse:  No legend
Cross potent on three steps between facing standing figures of Heraclius (on left) and Tiberius (on right), each wearing crown and chlamys, and holding globus cruciger.
Various characters to right and/or left and/or at base that can't be made out on your coin.

As for who made it, I can only personally speculate that it was from Arabs who were nearby and who would conquer the city in the following decade (AD 698).  I hope someone more knowledgeable sees this though and can share the actual answer.

Kevin  :)

Offline Orthodoxcoins

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Re: Gold found!
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2007, 11:48:18 am »
#1188
http://www.orthodoxcoins.com
Catalogue of the Late Byzantine Coins

Offline joma-tk

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Re: Gold found!
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2007, 12:56:28 pm »
Actually (the gold one), is Sear 1189A and not 1188.
Please look at the indictional year H (=8) at the left of the reverse of the coin

Offline Orthodoxcoins

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Re: Gold found!
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2007, 04:45:34 am »
 :)
Of course, you are right! This is 1889A in my data-base, it's only in comparison with the fouree.
http://www.orthodoxcoins.com
Catalogue of the Late Byzantine Coins

Offline Rupert

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Re: Gold found!
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2007, 11:46:07 am »
Thank you very much for your help!! I just measured the coin again, it's 2.5 mm thick, so not really globular. I've seen pictures of the small thick solidi of Carthage (they were probably made like this to prevent clipping, I suppose), and I always thought these were even more globular. Now we'll see whether I'm going to get a real gold coin some time. But it won't be as cheap as this one. ;)

Thank you very much again,

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline Rupert

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Re: Gold found!
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2007, 12:33:56 pm »
This was the seller's picture (the only one!) of the lot.

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline Pep

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Re: Gold found!
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2007, 12:49:12 pm »
For what it's worth, I see what might be a very faint :Greek_Eta: or :Greek_Nu: to the left of the cross and a dot to the right (part of some letter?).  The plating might be covering up deeper relief or they might just be artifacts.

The coins it was sold with deepen the mystery for me.

Kevin  :)

Offline Rupert

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Re: Gold found!
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2007, 02:49:20 pm »
Hi Kevin,

there is no letter to the left of the cross; the dot just at the right edge of the cross is there. Do you think it has any meaning?

As for the strange compilation, I think somebody sorted them out from his collection as not being real and maybe gave them to somebody else whom he might have wanted to get interested. When this person lost his interest, he sold them on Ebay, described as "3 old Romans??????". But even the seller suspected that the Syracuse coin was not ancient. Or the coins really were - as is often stated but hardly ever real - found in an estate clearing.

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline Nassif

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Re: Gold found!
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2007, 09:25:32 am »
It could happened by this way,on an other hand,some sellers have very clever way to sell...we can call it:"strategy" for sale,the most important point is to be trusted by the customer to be prepared for a 2nd sale with more surprise....
Regards.
Nassif

Offline Pep

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Re: Gold found!
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2007, 06:14:53 am »
Hi Kevin,

there is no letter to the left of the cross; the dot just at the right edge of the cross is there. Do you think it has any meaning?

I honestly don't know.

Sometimes there's a star in the right field on a Sear 1188.

Kevin  :)

 

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