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Author Topic: Macedonian overstrike. Celtic Strymon/Trident coinage?  (Read 424 times)

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Offline Phil P

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Macedonian overstrike. Celtic Strymon/Trident coinage?
« on: December 03, 2021, 02:02:07 pm »
Here is a coin I asked about fifteen years ago before my hiatus, a strange overstruck coin, and I understandably only got some general guesses as to what it might be. I’m not giving up on it, and I think I’ve found a new and very fruitful line of attack.
I’ve learned of the Celtic Strymon/Trident coinage from the late 2nd/early 1st c. BC, always overstruck on plundered Macedonian coins, and imitating a Macedonian original of Philip V or Perseus showing the river god Strymon and a Trident reverse (sometimes ornate and nearly like the original; sometimes crude). I could be barking up the wrong tree, but it seems reasonable to me.
The question is whether I can narrow down what coin it overstruck. In hand, the coin is black, 20 by 25mm, and 6.7g, distorted, stretched, and cracked by the overstrike. Last time I thought the obverse might be a helmeted Athena, but now, focusing on Macedonian coins of that period, could there be a resemblance to some helmeted Alexander IIIs (seeing either some design or hair under the apparent helmet crest), or does that detail come from the Strymon overstrike?
On the reverse, you see the large, plain trident. But it almost looks like it was triple struck (at least). In the lower right there are horse’s hind legs (that I thought could be a pegasus flying left when I was focusing on Athena and Corinth, but haven’t found that reverse in the right time and place). Lower middle kind of looks like a stick figure soldier holding a spear. But I think the “spear” could be an exergue line with a slanted Σ beneath (left) of it. At the upper middle I see a wheel? (Circle with four spokes). Also a couple >s at the right edge on the tip of the trident (only one seems visible in the photo).
Even if you can’t help me with the understrike, just letting me know if I’m on the right track with the Celtic plunder coins would give me something to put on the coin label.
Thanks in advance.

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Macedonian overstrike. Celtic Strymon/Trident coinage?
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2021, 02:45:20 pm »
I'll see what I can do with the undertype later, but right now I have headache I would not wish on an enemy-----no, I am not that nice a guy, I would wish it on an enemy.  I have about twenty of these overstrikes--as you can tell, I am particularly fascinated by them.  Not all Strymon/Trident imitations show signs of undertypes, but many do.

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Macedonian overstrike. Celtic Strymon/Trident coinage?
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2021, 04:56:36 pm »
Dear Phil P, Mac, and Board,

It took me some time to get my head away from Thessalonica, but once I realized the world of undertype possibilities was larger than that city, I found the answer in its neighbor, Pella:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1905279

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2958415

Hope this helps!


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan   

Offline Phil P

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Re: Macedonian overstrike. Celtic Strymon/Trident coinage?
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2021, 05:41:22 pm »
Thanks. I was led astray by thinking those were hind legs. Now, in the photo, that > does look like the horse’s head, moreso than in hand. But the corn ears below the horses clinch it. At least I got the wheel and the Σ right. The date's slightly early (Circa 187-168 BC vs "late 2nd century BC" for the Celts plundering and overstriking), but not outrageously so, so can I at least assume I got the Celtic Strymon/Trident correct? (Throw me a bone, so I don't conclude I am absolutely horrible at this identification business).

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Macedonian overstrike. Celtic Strymon/Trident coinage?
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2021, 06:36:25 pm »
It is easier to see the host coin reverse if the coin is rotated:

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Macedonian overstrike. Celtic Strymon/Trident coinage?
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2021, 08:11:05 pm »
Dear Phil, Mac, and Board,

Concerning the dating you are citing, Phil, for the Strymon/trident bronze imitations (i.e. "late 2nd/early 1st c. BC"), I believe the evidence we have for this mainly stems from the overstrikes.  Remember: the most important (identifiable) undertypes are always the newest host coins, the ones that were minted closest to the time of the overstriking (assuming the operations weren't done over the course of many years).  So, by referencing the "late 2nd/early 1st c. BC," you are indirectly implying that newer host coins for the bronze imitations are known, newer than the Pella undertype under discussion which could have been circulating for years or pressed back into service.  In other words, there is no chronological/historical problem here that I see (from the information you provided).  I just wanted to make that clear.

And, yes, if there is any lingering doubt, your coin is one of the imitated Macedonian bronzes, commonly attributed to the Eastern Celts.
 
Again, I hope this helps.


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan

Offline Phil P

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Re: Macedonian overstrike. Celtic Strymon/Trident coinage?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2021, 05:06:41 am »
Thanks. I wasn't thinking there was any historical problem; I just had no idea how long these coins stayed in circulation, so that it would still be around to get plundered late in the century.
On to the next mystery.

Offline Altamura

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Re: Macedonian overstrike. Celtic Strymon/Trident coinage?
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2021, 07:09:00 am »
Indeed, these imitations are quite fascinating :).

Meanwhile there is also a bit of literature about it available.

In Ilya Prokopov, "Imitations of Bronze Coins in Thracia during the Ist century B.C.", in: Proceedings of the XII Internationaler Numismatischer Kongress, Berlin 1997, Berlin 2000, S. 369-377:
https://www.academia.edu/1296346/Imitations_of_Bronze_Coins_in_Thracia_during_the_1st_century_BC
he gives an overview of these imitative coinage and shows examples of quite a lot of overstrikes on different undertypes.
Prokopov dates these coins between 168 BC and the end of the first century BC. About the origin he writes "Most probably, the producers and users of the imitations were the Celtic tribes of the Bastarni."

A recent article by Prokopov is "Imitations of bronze coins of the "Strimon / trident" type found in Pazardzhik" from 2021:
https://www.academia.edu/49109109/IMITATIONS_OF_BRONZE_COINS_OF_THE_STRIMON_TRIDENT_TYPE_FOUND_IN_PAZARDZHIK
(in Bulgarian with English summary). Here he dates "from the period after 168 and before 27 BC." and places the origin "along the Middle Struma river".

At the academia.edu page of Prokopov you find even some more articles about these imitations, but you have to search a bit. Prokopov really wrote quite a lot of papers :):
https://independent.academia.edu/IlyaProkopov

Regards

Altamura

Offline Altamura

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Re: Macedonian overstrike. Celtic Strymon/Trident coinage?
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2021, 11:17:20 am »
A little addendum: In CCCHBulg. IV. NUMISMATIC COLLECTION OF THE REGIONAL HISTORICAL MUSEUM AT BLAGOEVGRAD (Ancient Skaptopara), Sofia 2014, you even find some sort of die study of the Bogolin hoard, beginning on page 130:
https://www.academia.edu/7607019/CCCHBulg_IV_NUMISMATIC_COLLECTION_OF_THE_REGIONAL_HISTORICAL_MUSEUM_AT_BLAGOEVGRAD_Ancient_Skaptopara_

In the case of the coin here it doesn't help much, because the differenciating criterion is the shape of the head on the obverse, which cannot be seen clearly here :-\.

Regards

Altamura

Offline Phil P

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Re: Macedonian overstrike. Celtic Strymon/Trident coinage?
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2021, 11:52:10 am »
Thanks for all the additional resources and info. And I really didn't have my heart set on identifying the exact die for the overstrike.

 

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