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Author Topic: Please Id this ancient coin (01)  (Read 887 times)

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Offline Gianluca G

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Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« on: December 02, 2021, 05:25:50 pm »
Hello,

the diameter is 29 mm

the weight is 4,41 grams

Thanks a lot

Offline Akropolis

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2021, 10:59:19 pm »
ROMANUS IV. 1068-1071 AD. Æ Follis (24mm). Constantinople mint. Obv: IC XC NI KA, nimbate facing bust of Christ, holding Gospels and raising hand in benediction. Rev: C R P Δ in quarters around jeweled cross. DOC III 8; SB 1866
PeteB

Offline Gianluca G

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2021, 02:32:10 am »
ROMANUS IV. 1068-1071 AD. Æ Follis (24mm). Constantinople mint. Obv: IC XC NI KA, nimbate facing bust of Christ, holding Gospels and raising hand in benediction. Rev: C R P Δ in quarters around jeweled cross. DOC III 8; SB 1866
PeteB

Thanks  ;D

Offline Gianluca G

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2021, 03:39:13 am »
 +++

Offline Gianluca G

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2021, 04:01:51 am »
ROMANUS IV. 1068-1071 AD. Æ Follis (24mm). Constantinople mint. Obv: IC XC NI KA, nimbate facing bust of Christ, holding Gospels and raising hand in benediction. Rev: C R P Δ in quarters around jeweled cross. DOC III 8; SB 1866
PeteB

here, they grade their coin as VF https [ LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

i was noticing that my coin is better ... could we consider something more than a VF, something like VF+ ?

Thanks for the reply

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2021, 07:37:56 am »
I would not call either more than Fine.

Offline Gianluca G

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2021, 09:05:53 am »
Strange , purchased for VF next the estimated auction house  Savoca coins. How is possibile that you grade it less than fine ?

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2021, 10:39:34 am »
I did not write it was less than Fine, just that I would not call it more than Fine.  In recent years, it seems to me, people have been grading coins as better preserved than they used to do so.  All grading, remember, is subjective; there is no such thing as a grade that objectively real.  It is just a matter of opinion.  I was, indeed, wrong to mention grading at all.  As far as I am concerned, there are only two grades: "I want it" and "I do not want it."

Offline Gianluca G

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2021, 11:18:37 am »
Thanks for your answer. I will consider it.  +++

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2021, 01:24:04 pm »
My experience as a coin buyer only and not an expert is that many coins are overgraded. Beyond that, there are a lot of variables that relate to specific coin issues and their quality. For example, I have seen Judean coins graded VF that I would have graded Poor in the grand scheme of things, but I have always assumed that is because the Judean coins were poor quality when they were minted compared to some other places. It is just so subjective and that includes coins that have been through a grading service like NGC. I agree with David, either I want it or I don't want it and that is, for me, a combination of what I like, what I need for specific interests, and what I can afford. That said, the coin in my avatar (also posted in Forum Purchase of the Day in the COTD section), was graded VF and I would have probably graded it EF. My only assumption on that grading is that it is off center, otherwise, that one is one of the best struck/best condition coins I own. So, I guess it could go both ways. Grading is one reason I have zero interest in modern coins and there are some interesting youtube videos about people breaking open NGC encapsulations so they can resubmit the coin and hope to get a higher grade that will make the coin more valuable.

Regards,
Virgil

Offline Gianluca G

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2021, 04:36:25 pm »
thanks for your message, i start to understand, and to learn,   +++

Offline SC

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2021, 06:27:12 pm »
Personally, with the advent of the internet and ubiquitous photography I find that the utility of grading ancients is fading away.  The coin is what it is and the photo shows it.  Maybe with all the fine nuances in grading modern coins or slabbed coins there are details or qualities that don't come across via a photo and where the grade still helps but for ancients I just look at the image.

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Offline djmacdo

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2021, 06:45:45 pm »
Good observation!

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2021, 07:04:15 pm »
You nailed it, Shawn. The NGC grading thing, in addition to being a profit center for them, is an attempt to move ancient coins into the realm of modern coins where grade is just insanely overrated, in my opinion (what little I know about the stamp world is also obsessed with grade). I do not like this trend at all for ancients and the two NCG encapsulated ancient coins I have bought I have broken out of their little prisons. LOL. Doing so probably reduced their value, but I don't care. I did keep the tag, however.

Regards,
Virgil

Offline Gianluca G

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2021, 04:57:58 am »
You nailed it, Shawn. The NGC grading thing, in addition to being a profit center for them, is an attempt to move ancient coins into the realm of modern coins where grade is just insanely overrated, in my opinion (what little I know about the stamp world is also obsessed with grade). I do not like this trend at all for ancients and the two NCG encapsulated ancient coins I have bought I have broken out of their little prisons. LOL. Doing so probably reduced their value, but I don't care. I did keep the tag, however.

Regards,
Virgil

In fact, I have been thinking about this reasoning for a long time. A different gradation scale should be taken into consideration for each type and period. It is unthinkable that the gradation relating to a modern coin can be associated with that of an ancient coin. Do you know if there is an exclusive specific gradation for ancient coins that considers the type and age and which is not associated with the standard gradation of modern coins? A website, a tab, a catalog, a different way of being able to carry out a tutorial, so that those who are approaching ancient coins do not have to submit to the misleading gradations of modern coins that have nothing to do with the more detailed and particular evaluation that it can be referred to an ancient coin such as the Roman one. It seems rather strange to me that no one has ever thought of contemplating a specific tab and a different evaluation criterion as regards the gradation of an ancient coin compared to the gradations of modern ones.

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2021, 07:52:44 am »
I cannot even imagine getting people to agree to the various criteria!

Offline SC

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2021, 09:06:26 am »
When I started in this hobby about 20 years ago I found several books or websites that had sections about grading ancient coins.

To be fair to them, most had nothing to do with the modern system, no numerical system based on minute examination.  Most that I saw/remember consisted of a series of images, usually of sestertii and of denarii, showing the different grades.  One problem flaw that I saw was that they always involved coins that were mostly flawless other than wear.  The sestertii had even patinas, whether rich green or the light brown of a coin that had once ben stripped, with no accretions or corrosion.  The denarii were always clean and shiny.  In other words the systems seemed to work almost entirely on wear - how much of the legend and design surface details remained.  There might be a little discussion on off-centre strikes but nothing much on those other things - corrosion, crustiness, uneven patina, etc.

That left it hard to figure out how to deal with, say, a coin with very little wear but a blob of crustiness on one part, or to compare a coin with little wear but splotchy patina versus a more worn one with nicer even patina.  Let alone the always slightly subjective question on the degree of wear.

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Offline Virgil H

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2021, 05:52:01 pm »
I want to clarify what I said in regard to the grading services and the relationship of ancient and modern grading. I did not mean to imply that they are trying to apply modern grading standards to ancients, that would be impossible. They are, in my outsider opinion as a coin buyer and not an industry insider, trying to make grade way more important than it should be. I guess I also think it is way more important than it should be with moderns, too, and I am just not playing that game. For a subset of collectors, this grading will and has become important and affects price. There is a subset of collectors that "invest" in coins and keep them in a safe deposit box and never hold them or see them. I am aware that a coin in NCG encapsulation is probably overpriced simply because it is in the encapsulation. But, in the end, I buy the coins I like and that I can afford. Anything that artificially drives up prices, I don't like. LOL. And it is for sure that if you get ten ancients' collectors together you will get ten opinions. As a total aside, I have reached the point where I have a few coins I may want to sell at some point and one reason I haven't done it is because I want to be fair in what I say the grade is yet have no clue.

And I think that discussions like this are helpful and worthwhile. Grading is one of those things.

Regards,
Virgil

Offline Gianluca G

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Re: Please Id this ancient coin (01)
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2021, 01:18:41 pm »
I want to clarify what I said in regard to the grading services and the relationship of ancient and modern grading. I did not mean to imply that they are trying to apply modern grading standards to ancients, that would be impossible. They are, in my outsider opinion as a coin buyer and not an industry insider, trying to make grade way more important than it should be. I guess I also think it is way more important than it should be with moderns, too, and I am just not playing that game. For a subset of collectors, this grading will and has become important and affects price. There is a subset of collectors that "invest" in coins and keep them in a safe deposit box and never hold them or see them. I am aware that a coin in NCG encapsulation is probably overpriced simply because it is in the encapsulation. But, in the end, I buy the coins I like and that I can afford. Anything that artificially drives up prices, I don't like. LOL. And it is for sure that if you get ten ancients' collectors together you will get ten opinions. As a total aside, I have reached the point where I have a few coins I may want to sell at some point and one reason I haven't done it is because I want to be fair in what I say the grade is yet have no clue.

And I think that discussions like this are helpful and worthwhile. Grading is one of those things.

Regards,
Virgil

Totally agree, thanks  +++

 

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