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Author Topic: Thoughts on Graded Coins  (Read 2283 times)

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Offline jskirwin

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Thoughts on Graded Coins
« on: November 06, 2014, 06:19:05 pm »
I was wondering what people thought about graded coins. Do they collect them? How do they feel about qualifiers?

I'm looking at what are for me high dollar coins, and I'm thinking about going the graded route to avoid issues with counterfeits. I'd rather not because I really enjoy touching the history of these artifacts, but don't like the risk of getting burned on a counterfeit that would set me back serious $$$.

For those who do collect them, in sports cards qualifiers impact the value. Do they do the same with coins?

Thanks!
Collecting Deification Issues in all forms.

Offline Adrian W

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2014, 06:32:52 pm »
I know a number of collectors who collect Aureus and when they get a coin always get it slabbed and graded to make sure its genuine as there have been times when what appears to be real has
actually been a fake and very good ones that where not obvious.

So I think its a personal decision which is neither right or wrong

Adrian
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Offline Sam

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2014, 06:51:23 pm »
Having the coin graded is a good decision if you have got doubts , but you got to keep in mind that they have their own scale of grading ..


Also if you like the coin to be loose and touch it any time you want
you can have the coin certified by  known Numismatist.

Or simply buy from FORVM coin store .. they have Dr. Ilya Prokopov, Authentication Consultant.
your coin will be guarantied for ever.

Good luck
Sam
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2014, 06:52:21 pm »
If you are worried about fakes then buy from reputable dealers like Forum who offer lifetime guarantees.  Know the coin or know the seller is a motto you will hear a lot here.  This is goes for all coins but even more so for higher value coins.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2014, 07:10:03 pm »
If I was a collector buying coins for over $5k, and did not have a lot of confidence in my own ability, even with a guarantee I would get them certified either by David Sear or NGC. I would want a second opinion. For lower value coins, a counterfeiter must make multiple copies to make the effort worthwhile. For low value coins, duplicates will very likely eventually identify even the best of fakes. For a high value coin, a counterfeiter might actually only make one forgery.
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Offline areich

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2014, 10:19:27 am »
But be aware that they are nothing more than that, a second opinion. The two that Joe mentioned are the only two persons/firms to send coins to to authenticate, if you can't just show it to a bunch of dealers at the next coin show. But David Sear is not up to date on the latest forgeries and NGC have made some errors as we've seen here over the years. Some were errors that just happen, some shouldn't have happened. Buy from a dealer you can trust and that should be enough. Joe here is such a dealer, there are others but out of respect to Joe (and the forum rules), I won't name them.
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Offline SC

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2014, 05:13:09 am »
I think grading is an alien concept to ancient coins.  Also, grading is not authentication per se.  Grading gives a certification that a modern coin is deemed to be in a certain condition, on a given scale, by a vendor or grading agency.  It also, one hopes, gives some indication that the coin is authentic, or at least thought to be by the vendor.

For ancients grading is not really relevant.  Instead there is a much smaller range of condition assessments that can be given, aF, nVF, EF, etc.  However, despite many attempts at standardization these descriptions are somewhat subjective.  One can argue that they are irrelevant in the age of easy photography - the condition is what it is - but that they were more important in an age of sales lists and catalogues that were not always fully illustrated.

I think that the real issue you raise is about authenticity and that is really about two things - knowledge - the more you learn the less chance of burn - and about dealing with a trusted dealer.  If you are collecting mainly for yourself then trust is really all you need in a dealer - trusting them to not rip you off, to know their stuff and to honour any mistakes re authenticity.  If you are looking more to "invest" (and I will not comment on the wisdom of that re ancients) then dealer reputation is perhaps the most important. 

Trust and reputation are not exactly the same.  Trust is part reputation and part your own relationship with the dealer.  Reputation is a bit of a name brand thing.  You can have great trust in small dealers no one knows but having tags and receipts from large famous dealers will often have a more direct impact on re-sale value - though of course you will pay up front for that.

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Offline jskirwin

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2014, 10:31:49 am »
Resurrecting this thread because I'm getting more into graded coins...

So regarding pricing...

What I'm seeing is a lot of variance with some higher graded coins going for less than those of lower grades. Since I'm trying to enjoy the "hobby of kings" on a peasant's budget I'm always on the lookout for bargains. But what I'm finding leads me to believe that while a coin may have a higher grade, eye-appeal is more important. Is this the case?

Coming from sports cards this is hardly ever the case. For a particular card a PSA 8 w/out qualifiers will always sell more than a PSA 8 w/qualifiers or a PSA 7. Yet my research regularly finds XF beating a CHXF, although apples-apples comparisons are hard due to the variance of reverses. There's even a "fine style" qualifier that seems to be a positive qualifier, meaning the coin should be worth more.

Maybe I'm complicating this too much; just consider it the natural evolution of a new collector to the hobby.

Thanks and a Happy Hanukkah/Merry Christmas to all my fellow collectors on these boards.
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2014, 10:50:37 am »
Resurrecting this thread because I'm getting more into graded coins...

So regarding pricing...

What I'm seeing is a lot of variance with some higher graded coins going for less than those of lower grades. Since I'm trying to enjoy the "hobby of kings" on a peasant's budget I'm always on the lookout for bargains. But what I'm finding leads me to believe that while a coin may have a higher grade, eye-appeal is more important. Is this the case?

Coming from sports cards this is hardly ever the case. For a particular card a PSA 8 w/out qualifiers will always sell more than a PSA 8 w/qualifiers or a PSA 7. Yet my research regularly finds XF beating a CHXF, although apples-apples comparisons are hard due to the variance of reverses. There's even a "fine style" qualifier that seems to be a positive qualifier, meaning the coin should be worth more.

Maybe I'm complicating this too much; just consider it the natural evolution of a new collector to the hobby.

Thanks and a Happy Hanukkah/Merry Christmas to all my fellow collectors on these boards.

Yes, and there's reasons for this. Top end collectors rarely collect graded coins. Such collectors often have higher levels of expertise in their own areas than NGC so they don't value the authentication, and they also prefer to be able to handle their ancients. Indeed they will inevitably crack open a slabbed coin and discard the slab. The slabs may reduce sale prices because collectors feel that they cannot examine a coin properly before an auction, so will bid less.

Coin sellers know this. So some sellers, whenever they come across a high grade ancient that looks ugly for its type, and know it'll never sell for a good price in a top auction, then instead they send it to be slabbed. Then they sell it to you! (or to other collectors who prefer to rely on an NGC grade than their own assessment of a coins beauty). In contrast, when a pretty CHXF slabbed coin comes up for sale, the seller will often crack open and discard the slab before offering it for sale, because the slab detracts from the likely selling price for a nice coin. A slab often hides a technically high grade but "problem coin".

I've a large collection assembled over a number of decades. I've no slabbed coins and must admit to having an anti-slab bias. So excuses for showing this in my response! I recognise many collectors do like slabs for the authentication and sense of security it gives them. But those who need that sense of comfort are rarely the advanced collectors who buy CHXF coins (or rather, Good Extremely Fine or GEF in the language of ancients collectors). So there's no real surprise that slabs and CHXF have an uneasy coexistence.

Below is an example of a Good Extremely Fine denarius in my own collection that I bought from the unsolds list in an NAC auction, but probably shouldn't have bought regardless how cheap it was. I'll upgrade the coin at some time in the future, probably to a pleasant toned GVF.



This is a perfect example of the type of GEF coin that gets slabbed but is actually worth less than a beautiful GVF.What's wrong with the coin? The reverse is no real problem though its surfaces are not perfect. The obverse is all mashed up with an unreadable legend and lots of details missing, the surfaces are as smooth as a choppy sea, the dies were probably rusty though its difficult to be certain given the slide strike, and the style isn't pretty.

Yet NGC might grade it CHXF because it's fresh struck and unworn.

Offline stlnats

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2014, 12:28:38 pm »
But what I'm finding leads me to believe that while a coin may have a higher grade, eye-appeal is more important. Is this the case?


In general, I'd say yes for most "serious" collectors.  Remember that premodern coins were hand made so there are a lot more attributes to consider than with machine stuck coins (or stamps, BB cards, etc).   I collect folles of RIC VI and have often passed on technically uncirculated coins that were unatrractive or just plain ugly (IMHO) in preference to a gently circulated example with strong eye appeal (well/fully struck, attractive patina and surfaces, etc).  Andrew provides a very concrete example of this but the differences can often be subjective and opinions can differ of "what's best" even amongst knowledgable folks, at least in comparison with machine stuck coins.  In terms of autheniticy, I agree that "certification" may have value IF you get the opinion of someone who actually knows the series - and that seems much harder to do with the growing tsumani of fakes, some quite good, coming onto the market.  Still no substitute for doing one's own due diligence and employing "caveat emptor" when one considers a purchase and, again as Andrew suggests, slabs can sometimes hide issues.

I also admit a general bias against most slabbing.  I like to play with my coins but a lot of this comes from my experience collecting US national bank notes.  As slabbing became more popular, I noticed a decrease in "XF" notes and increase in uncirculated ones.  Some of this was due to less strict standards but some was undoubtedly due to "restoration" efforts.  And its as hard to smell bleach residue when a note's encased in plastic as it is to see some issues with a coin similarly entombed. 

I do think TPG has made collecting more comfortable/accessible for some new collectors and seems to be gaining in popularity as just about every coin offered by some auction houses in the US seems to be TPG'd.  I don't know (or really care) whether this is good or bad, it just doesn't seem that important to me.  Again just MHO.   

 ;D

Offline carthago

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2014, 12:50:52 am »
Resurrecting this thread because I'm getting more into graded coins...

So regarding pricing...

What I'm seeing is a lot of variance with some higher graded coins going for less than those of lower grades. Since I'm trying to enjoy the "hobby of kings" on a peasant's budget I'm always on the lookout for bargains. But what I'm finding leads me to believe that while a coin may have a higher grade, eye-appeal is more important. Is this the case?

In short, I would say yes.  Eye appeal in ancient coins is like location in real estate. 

There are more variables in ancient coins than most modern collectables.  In ancient coins, grade is a combination of quality of manufacture and condition.  There is usually little comparable variability in the quality of manufacture in modern collectables such as modern coins, baseball cards, comic books, etc.  Ancient coins were all hand made and vary considerably in the quality of the dies and actual manufacturing (striking). Then there are the negative qualifiers for what happens to the coin afterwards such as wear and damage or positive qualifiers such as patina and toning.  These things all add up to eye appeal and are not always agreed upon by all collectors.  Eye appeal certainly cannot be objectively quantified in a score.  But eye appeal matters significantly in the final tally. 

Then there is rarity and general desirability of a particular issue.  For instance, issues of Julius Caesar were originally made by the millions with many, many still surviving today (NOT truly rare!), but they will sell for multiples of their comparable rarity because, after all, it's Julius Freaking Caesar!

Confused yet?   ??? 


Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2014, 06:34:10 am »
Three times "Yes" so far to the question asked.

Below is a pair of coins of the same type (different varieties) from my own collection to again illustrate why you can't put a single grade on an ancient coin without adding a host of qualifiers that won't fit on a slab.

The coin at top is Extremely Fine, and the coin at bottom is Very Fine. So, same coin type, both with a little flatness, we've a perfect like for like comparison, therefore the EF coin must be worth maybe five times as much? I'm afraid not, and on a good day with a good sales pitch the VF coin might realise about as much. In simple terms it's more beautiful. But adding extra comments, the upper coin has its flatness in the wrong places. Both the head of the Muse and the stage mask that she holds on the EF coin are flat whereas the head of the Muse on the VF example is perfectly detailed; its flatness is in the two pipes at behind her head, but they are at least partially visible and not as important as a head. The reverse of the VF is as close to perfect as is possible for a VF coin, the tiniest flatness is on the end of the drapery, hardly significant. Moving onto the quality of the dies, the obverse of the EF coin has a number of distracting die breaks, under the chin, at the nose, behind the head. The VF coin seems to have been struck from good smooth dies, no evidence of any die breaks or die rust. On surfaces, the fact that the EF has never toned after decades of ownership suggests that all is not right - experienced collectors know that only silver coins with perfect surfaces tone nicely - and indeed we see on the obverse of the EF a rippled surface with possibly microscopic corrosion, and its the latter that prevents the toning. The reverse of the EF looks to have good surfaces but its lack of toning makes me wonder if the coin was once chemical washed to make it look bright (which it is); such a chemical wash can leach elements from the surface, and inhibit nice toning. The surface of the VF seem better, minor surface cracking on the obverse before the head but the reverse surface is almost lustrous like a concave mirror. Finally toning, evidently the VF is beautifully toned in such a manner as to highlight and enhance the devices which stand out more prominently than on the EF. May she never be subject to cleaning.

NGC likely grade: CHXF with flatness for the top coin, GVF with flatness for the bottom coin. Which is a better coin? Probably the EF will still sell for a higher price, but that's to an extent due to its grade, rather than to the coin's inherent quality, and the price of the EF will be deflated to an extent due its problems and the price of the VF inflated due to its qualities. Perhaps, if I want to sell the coins, I'll get the EF slabbed and graded. Not the VF.

Offline labienus

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2014, 02:06:49 pm »
Beauty and style
1/ in a box
2/ through standardized ways of thinking (ranking, grading, rating .... etc ....)

as Louis sang ... what a wonderful world !!!

Offline jskirwin

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2014, 10:03:36 pm »
Andrew McCabe
Thanks for that example. It very clearly shows the variance between the objective and the subjective. The VF is a much better looking coin.

I guess what I really must account for is having previously collected in an era of machine mass-produced items. Collecting things that are hand-made requires looking at them in a different way, a way that can only be mastered through experience. With art work I've developed a "gut-check" to determine whether I really like a piece or not. I suppose I have to do something similarly with ancients.

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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2014, 11:24:25 pm »
Andrew McCabe
Thanks for that example. It very clearly shows the variance between the objective and the subjective. The VF is a much better looking coin.

I guess what I really must account for is having previously collected in an era of machine mass-produced items. Collecting things that are hand-made requires looking at them in a different way, a way that can only be mastered through experience. With art work I've developed a "gut-check" to determine whether I really like a piece or not. I suppose I have to do something similarly with ancients.

Don't let me put you off slabbed coins with this discussion. Slabs have merits, the coins within have been authenticated, they provide physical protection, and they make nice displays. The grading aspect of the slabs are their weakest point however. Even with the points out of 5 scale for surfaces and strike, no account can be given for aspects of beauty or style, or the degree to which one or other important aspect of design is affected by issues. So, by all means collect slabbed coins, but use your own judgement as to beauty and value. These are hand made works of art and should be judged as such.

Offline Serendipity

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Re: Thoughts on Graded Coins
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2023, 05:20:50 pm »
I can only echo what others have said that if you are worried about fakes then buy from reputable dealers like the Forum who offer lifetime guarantees. Regarding sports cards, I ordered a 39mm coin capsule from a Michigan eBay coin supplies seller which arrived in the UK today. I was shocked to discover when I opened the parcel that the seller had sent me instead counterfeit Manon Rheaume hockey cards. I was even more alarmed when I read about a Michigan man sentenced to 30 months for selling counterfeit sports cards, following Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) investigation: https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/michigan-man-sentenced-30-months-selling-counterfeit-sports-cards-following-hsi#.

 

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