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Author Topic: Trivia 2/25/2011  (Read 3851 times)

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Offline Tacitus

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Trivia 2/25/2011
« on: February 25, 2011, 06:15:13 pm »
Which emperor was concerned about his thinning hair and refused to allow the word "goat" to be used in his presence?

Offline renegade3220

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2011, 06:40:47 pm »

Offline Mark Z

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2011, 06:51:30 pm »
Julius Caesar, of course :)

mz

Offline commodus

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2011, 07:40:05 pm »
Well, both of them were very much concerned with thinning hair, but only one of them -- Caligula -- was an emperor.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

joeparisi

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2011, 08:20:33 pm »
I thought Domitian penned "Care of the hair".

Offline Tacitus

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2011, 10:46:51 pm »
renegade3220 is correct.

Caligula is the correct answer....

Offline Mark Z

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2011, 11:21:03 pm »
Quote from: commodus on February 25, 2011, 07:40:05 pm
Well, both of them were very much concerned with thinning hair, but only one of them -- Caligula -- was an emperor.

tricky!


Offline mwilson603

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2011, 04:46:26 am »
And if we want to get even trickier, (and absolutely finicky), Caligula banned the mention of "Capra" or "Caper" rather than the word "goat;D
regards
Mark

Offline renegade3220

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2011, 09:55:08 pm »
If I remember correctly, he also made it illegal for anyone to look down at him from a higher vantage point.  He didn't want anyone seeing his shiny head.

Offline Mark Z

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2011, 01:33:13 pm »
If I remember correctly, he also made it illegal for anyone to look down at him from a higher vantage point.  He didn't want anyone seeing his shiny head.

Didn't these guys realize that their baldness was as the result of too much testosterone?

mz

Offline mwilson603

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2011, 02:28:29 pm »
If I remember correctly, he also made it illegal for anyone to look down at him from a higher vantage point.  He didn't want anyone seeing his shiny head.

Didn't these guys realize that their baldness was as the result of too much testosterone?

mz

hmmmm, I wonder why you might have mentioned that ;)

(I speak as someone who has had a "widows peak" since I was 15, so I know where you are coming from!)

regards

Mark

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2011, 05:57:02 pm »
Testosterone hadn't been invented, but vanity had.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline mwilson603

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2011, 06:52:22 pm »
Testosterone hadn't been invented, but vanity had.

 :laugh:

rsuarez

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2011, 03:26:48 am »
ok here's what i think is a tough one: which emperor befriended a former emperor?

i wonder if watson would get this one right :-)

ras

Offline PeterD

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2011, 06:40:06 am »
Elementary my dear Ras! There weren't many 'former' emperors.

In April 308 Maximian tried to usurp his son Maxentius'  position at Rome and when he failed he took refuge with his new son-in-law, Constantine, in Gaul and became his trusted advisor for two years. Of course he blew it when in 310 he tried to usurp Constantines position and ended up dead.
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rsuarez

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2011, 08:07:25 am »
hmmmmmm.. not who i was thinking of (were they actually ever *friends* or merely allies?). technically diocletian fits the bill here more so than constantine since, at the point of abdication, the two had been imperial colleagues for a generation and they really were close. but i wasn't thinking of him either.

another try? :-)

Offline mwilson603

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2011, 08:26:07 am »
hmmmmmm.. not who i was thinking of (were they actually ever *friends* or merely allies?). technically diocletian fits the bill here more so than constantine since, at the point of abdication, the two had been imperial colleagues for a generation and they really were close. but i wasn't thinking of him either.

another try? :-)

So it's not actually a question of getting the answer right, but actually guessing who Ras is thinking of.  Hmmmmm, that makes it a little trickier  ;)
regards
Mark

Offline PeterD

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2011, 08:33:15 am »
What about Vetranio? He abdicated, expressed his loyalty to Constantius and was given an estate in Bythnia where he lived happy ever after. Don't know if this counts as 'befriending'.
Peter, London

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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2011, 05:07:01 pm »
The Tetricii seem to have held high political office in Italy after surrendering to Aurelian. That's not necessarily friendship, though. Vetranio resigned, then went off to a banquet with Constantius, so that fits the bill better.
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Offline Tacitus

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2011, 05:48:41 pm »
Tetricus and Aurelian fit the best in my opinion.
There are very few instances where an emperor safely retires.  Really only 2 come to mind.  Tetricus and Dioceletian.

Offline Mark Z

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2011, 06:39:37 pm »
Testosterone hadn't been invented, but vanity had.


Mr. B.,

How true!

"Vanity, thy name is Caesar!"

Mark,

you must've seen a pic of me ;)

mz

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2011, 12:55:21 am »
Robert gets it right (at least who I had in mind). Tetricus essentially capitulated by way of a secret treaty with Aurelian and ran off the field when their two forces met, leaving Tetricus's commanders stunned. Since they weren't privy to the emperors' plans they fought on for a while.

Aurelian honored his end of the bargain and pardoned Tetricus and his son then went a step further and made him a regional governor and his son a senator. The two developed an ongoing friendship with Aurelian reportedly addressing him as "emperor" in deference.

Vetranio abdicated - or was forced to resign his title - and was able to retire but there is no indication that Constantius II had a personal relationship with him and, if his character as recorded by Ammianus is any indication, it's likely he didn't have any friends at all!

Ras

Offline Pscipio

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2011, 06:33:38 am »
Ras,

do you know what sources mention an "ongoing friendship" of the Tetrici with Aurelian, and Aurelian addressing Tetricus as "emperor" in deference - the HA? I find no mention of that in either Drinkwater nornig and don't have the ever problematic HA at home to check. To my knowledge, all we know is that there was no damnatio of the so-called Gallic emperors, and Aurelian received the Tetrici in favor, for which, I think, it is more plausible to assume that it was based upon his successful policy of clementia (also see Zenobia and Vabalathus) rather than a personal friendship. That the emperor's clementia applied to all of the "Gallic Empire" and not just its emperors is f.e. proven by an inscription found in Rome (!) recording the cursus honorum of an official (his name is lacking) who had been governor of germania superior (so a very important figure!) under the Tetrici yet he continued his career under Aurelian (see König, p. 181 and 223 f.).

Drinkwater suggests that the capitulation of Tetricus prior to the battle against Aurelian might be a later invention. I am not completely convinced that he is right but it should be pointed out that there are diverging opinions on that question.

As Tetricus I. was a Roman senator before he become emperor, his son Tetricus iunior automatically was, too. As defeated "usurpers", they would have lost their senatorial membership but according to the HA, Aurelian decided not to revoke it in case of Tetricus I. and to bestow it to Tetricus II. again. Of course the HA is often a problematic source and it may be easier to assume that Aurelian just did not revoke the membership of any of the two.

Lars
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Offline Pscipio

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Re: Trivia 2/25/2011
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2011, 10:42:17 am »
As I had to go to the library this afternoon anway, I also had a look at the Historia Augusta. As I suspected, the claim that Aurelian called Tetricus emperor comes from the HA, TT 24.5:

Pudore tamen victus vir nimium severus eum quem triumpherat correctorem totius Italiae fecit [...], at Tetricum non solum vivere, sed etiam in summa dignitate manere passus est, cum illum saepe collegam, nonnumquam commilitonem, aliquando etiam imperatorem appellaret

My Latin is fine but not perfect and translating first to German and then to English might cause errors, so I'm taking a translation from David Magie:

(Aurelian), nevertheless, exceedingly stern though he was, overcome by a sense of shame, made Tetricus, whom he had led in his triumph, supervisor over the whole of Italy [...], and suffered him not only to retain his life but also to remain in the highest position*, calling him frequently colleague, sometimes fellow-soldier, and sometimes even emperor.

We have to bear in mind here that the HA is notoriously unreliable especially for this period (it is much better for earlier emperors). Unless any other, more reliable source backs it up, I would be reluctant to accept any spectacular statement by the HA (and there are many) such as the one we are dealing with here. Further more, the author(s) of the HA disqualify themselves by calling Tetricus' new position correctorem totius Italiae, which is obviously another exaggeration; not only because all the other sources mention just the much more humble position corrector Lucaniae, but also because in the vita Aureliani, the HA itself correctly states that Aurelian made Tetricus governor of Lucania only, and not of all Italy! Further more, we have to bear in mind the background of the HA. It is a senatorial source, and the clear emphasis on the sentence quoted above is on pudore: Aurelian was overcome by shame, we are told. Why? Obviously because he had dared to present senators in a triumpal procession! And he not only presented them - which alone is a humiliation, see HA Aur. 34,4, telling who is participating: et senatus (etsi aliquantulo tristior, quod senatores triumphari videbant) = and the senate (albeit somewhat sadly, since they saw senators, too, being led in triumph) - but he further humiliated Tetrius father by inter haec fuit Tetricus chlamyde coccea, tunica galbina, bracis Gallicis ornatus (sic! HA Aur. 34.2): in the procession was Tetricus also, arrayed in scarlet cloak, a yellow tunic, and Gallic trousers. A Roman senator in Gallic trousers! What could be more humiliating than that? (even though it obviously had a special political purpose)

So without having had the time to read any of the modern commentaries on the passage (which certainly exist; it might be worthwhile to check the Stellenbiographie zur Historia Augusta, if there is nothing similar in English), I would be very careful here and simply interpret the statement made by the HA as one of the many exaggerations in that source, and, more specifically here, as a an attempt to retrieve the senatorial honor, which had been humiliated by Aurelian - and not as any indication of friendship between him and Tetricus, unless other sources confirms that (I know of none).

Lars

* personally, I would translate in summa dignitate more generally as "in highest honor/dignity"
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