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Author Topic: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?  (Read 11703 times)

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Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2007, 07:59:05 am »
Dear Discussion Board Enthusiasts!

I have been writing an article about these "Glykon" coins.   There are actually specimens dating as far back as Antoninus Pius (from Abonoteichus, Tium, Amaseia) and Caesar Marcus (Pergamum), some quite "Glykon-like" while others only suggest Alexander's pet snake.     

Try a search for images at the RPC IV website at http://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/


Mr. Lawrence, I have been trying to roughly date the Ionopolis (Abonoteichus) coinage of  Lucius Verus with only limited success.  (Syrian coinage is certainly unlike Alexandrian coins!)  How were you able to narrow down the dating on the Verus specimen mentioned in this thread from "161-169" to "161-166."  Is the portrait that indicative?   

Best regards,

Mark Fox

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2007, 08:31:58 am »
My humble apologies Patricia

Best regards,

Mark Fox

Offline slokind

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2007, 02:56:27 pm »
As in Cicero all homines sapientes are illi, it is quite all right with me that in Forvm all numismatici are guys, as in anthropology we all are anthropoi.
On the other hand, Abounoteichos / Ionopolis "objects" to being placed in Syria.  See, between Amastris and Sinope, its actual location on the attached map from Sear's GIC (I'm sure he won't mind).  In fact, its Pontic situation is probably important to the distribution of coins with that particular snake.
See the thread above for all of the considerations concerning what is very likely a 'Glycon' and what is a mantic-iatric-lucky snake by some other name or no particular name.  The time-span for that name might be limited, too.  Consider how many 19th c. terms, and today how many Freudian and Jungian terms, are no longer widely current (i.e., are confined to specialist literature).  Lucian would be delighted to pick up on a cult with such comic potential, too.  You should read a lot of Lucian to get the character of his mind.  What's the name of the debunker of magical spiritualism who comes on TV sometimes?
You don't give any citations so I guess I'll have to search for the other Bithynian and Pontic coins that you cite?  Pat L.
Agathodaimôn, as the name of a particular cult object, should, I think, be reserved for Alexandria and such other specific contexts as may occur where that name is actually used.  After all, the word itself just means Good Spirit, so literally it means not much more than Our Lucky Snake.
Closer dating indeed is difficult, but occasionally a magistrate can be dated.  Are the coins issued during the reign of  Antoninus Pius actually contemporary with part of the long period when Marcus Aurelius was Caesar (not just when he was a boy!)?  Check for magistrates.  It has been ascertained in several cases which ones issued coins for both Ant P and M Aur still within the lifetime of the former.

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2007, 08:26:37 am »
Dear Message Board Enthusiasts!

Thank you for your help, Patricia!  Indeed, calling Abonoteichus/Ionopolis a Syrian city doesn't fit like you said; sorry about that.  Yes, I have read a lot of Lucian lately.   Also, I did cite a source for the coins that I previously described: RPC IV.

Hopefully this link works:

http://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/search/quick/?q=Glykon+serpent&search=

I know of only one very obvious Glykon-looking specimen from Marcus as Caesar, found here (as well as in the previous link):

http://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/3197/?search&stype=quick&q=Glykon+serpent&rno=12

Happily, it refers to a magistrate, listed as "Quartos, strategos for the second time."

Again, however, I am uncertain if it is contemporary with the Antoninus Pius issues which are simply listed as 138-161 AD.  None of them carry a magistrate's name.  Volker Heuchert had told me it may be possible to narrow the dating based on the style of portraiture, although I do not know if he exactly meant the Pius issues.   I am particularly interested in narrowing the date range of the Verus coins, which involves a theory I discuss in the article.
 
I am surprised that no one has yet quoted Alexander's famous petition to the emperor.

"Was it not also a great piece of impudence on the part of Alexander that he should petition the Emperor to change the name of Abonoteichus and call it Ionopolis, and to strike a new coin bearing on one side the likeness of Glycon and on the other that of Alexander, wearing the fillets of his grandfather Asclepius and holding the falchion of his maternal ancestor Perseus?" (Alex. 58)
   
As the famous translator A. M. Harmon said in the satire's introduction:

"Although Alexander achieved honour not only in his own country, a small city in remote Paphlagonia, but over a large part of the Roman world, almost nothing is known of him except from the pages of Lucian. Gems, coins, and inscriptions corroborate Lucian as far as they go, testifying to Alexander's actual existence and widespread influence, and commemorating the name and even the appearance of Glycon, his human-headed serpent. But were it not for Lucian, we should not understand their full significance."

Thus, we find the significance of Alex. 58 in any discussion of "Glykon coins"

By the way, does anyone know where I may obtain permission to use an image of an excellent looking map like the one Patricia copied, or one of the statues/statuettes of Glykon?     

Thank you for continuing the discussion.


Best regards,

Mark Fox


 

Offline Arminius

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2007, 05:22:47 pm »
Another (but different) Glycon from Nikopolis:

Nikopolis in Moesia Inferior, Gordian III., issued by Sabinius Modestus,
4 assaria / Æ27 (27-28 mm / 11,03 g), 238-244 AD.,
Obv.: AYT K M ANT Γ-OP[ΔIANOC AYΓ , laureate, draped and cuirassed bust of Gordian right, seen from behind..
Rev.: VΠ CAB MOΔЄCT - OV NIKOΠOΛЄIT{ΩN} / Π POC ICT , ({ΩN} ligate) , Glykon (upright serpent with a dotted and radiate nimbus) right.
Pick (AMNG), Dacien & Moesien I, 1, p. 517, 2104.

Regards,
A.

Offline Arminius

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2007, 04:53:07 am »
One of Caracalla´s coiled serpents from Pautalia:

4 Assaria / Æ29 (29-30 mm / 15,26 g), 197-217 AD.,
Obv.: AYT K M AVP CEV - ANTΩNEINOC , laureate bust of Caracalla right.
Rev.: OVΛΠIAC ΠAVTAΛI / AC , erect coiled serpent left.

Ruzicka 685 / 690 var. ; Varbanov 3350 var. ; cf. BMC Thrace pg. 145, 32 ; SNG Copenhagen 710 var. ; cf. Moushmov 4259-60 ; Mionnet Supp. II pg. 389, 1112 ; (same obverse die as my Pautalia-Caracalla / Herakles Farnese coin).

Regards

leemjvd

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2007, 06:18:22 am »
Coming back from holiday I am quite happy but (too) late to join the fray, but I could not resist adding my coin

http://www.mimala.nl/micoi/-05th/subpage/pr-caracalla-04.html

When I got mine (a few years ago) I did not yet know this site and had a hard time finding data, had it not been for Steven Minnoch.

I (btw) still do not know why this snake is radiate ...

Best Regards
Michael van der Lee _ NL

Offline slokind

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2007, 02:59:53 pm »
Radiate for the gloria of divinity.  If mantic, the radiate and/or nimbate head probably expresses divine inspiration.  It's sort of like certain kinds of back lighting on television and in advertizing generally.  Pat L.

leemjvd

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2007, 03:03:24 am »
Thanks Pat ! But what does 'mantic' mean  ?

Mi

Offline slokind

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2007, 03:20:02 pm »
Of or related to the faculty of divination; PROPHETIC.  Thus the Webster Collegiate Dictionary.  It's the English spelling of Greek mantikos<mantis, a seer or prophet.  The Glykon snake at Abonouteichos was mantic.  Pat L.

Offline Arminius

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2007, 05:33:00 pm »
Hello,
i found another coiled serpent - but Domna from the Pautalia mint:

Pautalia in Thracia, Julia Domna, 193-211 AD., Diassarion(?) / Æ22 (22-23 mm / 7,38 g), Obv.: IOVΛIA - ΔOMN[A C]EB  , draped bust of Julia Domna right. Rev.: ΠAYTA - ΛEΩTΩN , erect coiled serpent, head right. "Moushmov 4218" .
 
Can someone please check Ruzicka if this is listed (as my confidence in Moushmov numbers is limited).

Best regards

Offline Pscipio

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2007, 05:38:13 pm »
Ruzicka 496 with IOVLIA DOMNA CEB on obverse, listed as Triassarion.

Lars
Leu Numismatik
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Offline wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2007, 06:04:51 pm »
Finally, an excuse to post the following, showing that the Constantia statue was far from unique:
Hwaet!
"The pump don't work 'cuz the Vandals took the handle" - St. Augustine
GET THE HELL OFF MY LAWN!!
(1940 - 2010)

Offline Jochen

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2007, 06:15:32 pm »
Very, very nice! I'm impressed!

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Offline wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2007, 06:26:29 pm »
Thank you very much, Jochen!  At the time I got this it struck me as the very essence of ancient coin exoticism, and I liked to imagine it as a line drawing of the sort stuck in as fillers into the text of books on Roman Imperials (z.B., Vagi).  Since then I have wandered into the wilds of Pisidia, and elsewhere, and have seen what exotic really is, and have become quite a fan of provincial portrait styles; after all, you cannot unsee the modernism of the last (!) century.  George S
Hwaet!
"The pump don't work 'cuz the Vandals took the handle" - St. Augustine
GET THE HELL OFF MY LAWN!!
(1940 - 2010)

Offline Arminius

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2008, 05:10:12 pm »
A real Agathodaimon from Egypt:

Alexandria in Egypt, Nero, dated year 4 = 57-58 AD.,
Tetradrachm, billon (23-25 mm / 9,47 g),
Obv.: NEPΩ KΛAV KAIΣ - ΣEB ΓEP AVTO , laureate head of Nero right.
Rev.: NEO AΓAΘΔAIM , Agathodaimon snake, wearing shkent, in coils erected r., holding poppy and grain-ears r, LΔ before.
RPC I, 5230 ; Geissen 127 ; Dattari 266 .

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Offline slokind

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Re: Geta from Augusta Trajana, Agathodaimon?
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2008, 07:38:06 pm »
It certainly is like the best Agathodaimons in LIMCPat L.

 

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