Educate me please. Alexander drachm

[Cloudcuckoo]

Good afternoon all. I am posting this in order to learn from the experienced hands here. I don't seriously suspect it is a fake Alexander drachm, because it has recently been listed by a major and reputable auction house and I yield to their experience. However, if I had seen it elsewhere, that rim between 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock on the reverse would leave me with enough doubt that I'd be uncertain, despite the surfaces and style looking otherwise fine to my eye. Could that artifact have been created by an overstrike? Or just a die misaligned with planchet? Any thoughts?

Kingdom of Macedon, Alexander III, 'The Great', (336-323BC), AR Drachm, head of Heracles right, clad in lion's skin, rev. ALEXANDROI Zeus seated left holding eagle and sceptre, uncertain motif in left field, possibly a shrimp or similar, X-Y monogram beneath throne, 12h, 4.28g

[Pekka K]

Helmet crest on left field, double axe under throne:

http://numismatics.org/pella/id/price.2138

Pekka K

[djmacdo]

I think you are right to be suspicious.  It looks like the outline of the original coin.  This may be a cast.  See what others think.

[Cloudcuckoo]

I think you are right to be suspicious.  It looks like the outline of the original coin.  This may be a cast.  See what others think.

Thanks djmacdo..yes, let's see if others have doubts too

[Frans Diederik]

I have serious doubts about it: looks a cast example because details on the face and hair are unclear, surfaces around the body are rough as if by casting. I'd send it back.

Frans

[Cloudcuckoo]

Thanks for your insight, Frans. Fortunately the coin is not mine. I spotted it while perusing Alexander drachm types in recent sales, but due to some personal doubts I'd  have given it a pass even if looking for a purchase at the time

[Din X]

The coin should be authentic but struck from worn dies in a late die state.

1. Authentic coins from these dies exist, so not a modern hand cut die fake
2. I do not see any typical problem of transfer die or cast fakes

The strange area on reverse 12-2 o´clock is not a ghost line (outline of the host), to be completely honest I only know that the planchet can be so strange near the edge on some authentic coins from different mints, times, emperors. I have seen this very often on Gold staters of Philip or Alexander, Roman Replic aurei of Julius Caesar RRC 466/1.
Leucas. AR Stater and Aspendos staters with wrestlers can have this too. And so on

[Din X]

Julius Caesar all authentic from museum collections

Pictures from here

https://numismatics.org/crro/id/rrc-466.1

[Din X]

Leukas authentic, I bought it because of the strange edge ^^

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5181909

[Din X]

Authentic Alexander and Philip Staters

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3773241

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=8100246

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7451342

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=8259705

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=8814078

[Cloudcuckoo]

That's very interesting DinX! This is why I requested education. Whether it was deemed a fake or not, there was something here for me to learn. Do you have any theory or explanation of what part of the production process would produce that edge artefact?

[Curtis JJ]

I agree that it looks like it could be a remnant from flan production, rather than a ghost line. What are these called? "Flan production lines"? Maybe Din X can say why for Macedonian Drachms, but I would assume that when the flans were cast (before striking) the metal flowed up around the edge (in some cases may a second edge in the cast itself? and for some types I suppose you could see something like that from overstriking). It may be that most such "flan preparation lines" are obliterated during striking.

Attached is an Alexander Drachm from Miletos that shows it even more dramatically. From a recent CNG auction (EA 517, 81: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=9547495)

I rarely say I'm sure a coin is genuine anymore, but unless I found any other cast types like this, I would lean toward authentic.

[Din X]

The coin was sold today on ebay for £51.00.

I can supply the ebay pictures, imho the coin is genuine, I thought about to bid on it but the obverse is worn and the coin is not rare and then there will we £8.59 for shipping and import charges £13.08.

[Din X]

An Alexander tetradrachm with the same strange edge problems on ebay.

What is interesting that on some emissions this edge problems are nothing special and on others they are rare to extremely rare.

That it has something to do with planchet production, planchet preparations or minting makes sense if we consider how often this can be found on some issues and on other not to extremely rarely.
What we have to think about is that this strange edges could have different causes/reasons, too.

I have seen this strange edge already often on ancient coins but I have not saved pictures and it is rather difficult to find them now:(

[Din X]

I looked at pella several coins of this emission have this strange edge

https://numismatics.org/pella/id/price.83

One example ANS collections picture from pella

[Din X]

I forgot that we had this already in German forum

here is another Sicilo Punic authentic ancient coin with this issue

https://nnc.dnb.nl/dnb-nnc-ontsluiting-frontend/#/collectie/object/RE-25106

[Cloudcuckoo]

Thanks for posting such great examples DinX. I am convinced that the artefact is a genuine consequence of something going on in the planchet production at certain mints.

PS For the record and because I know it can be a sensitive subject..I was not screening for a purchase. I did first see the coin on eBay, but wasn't on this occasion interested in a purchase and did not bid. Am glad I asked about it though..it has taught me something new. Thanks to all

[Din X]

We discussed this already in German forum

Altamura2 explained it there by citing

This is already explained and illustrated in George F. Hill, "Ancient Methods of Coining," NC V/2, 1922, pp. 1-42:

https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.1230/page/n17/mode/2up

And "Homer J. Simpson" his name here Rupert

The flakes were so ufo-shaped, biconvex with laterally protruding marginal bead. Depending on how the came to lie under the stamp, they were then deformed very differently