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Author Topic: Roman odd mount (or matrix)  (Read 191 times)

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Offline Kilian O

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Roman odd mount (or matrix)
« on: September 22, 2021, 03:41:06 pm »
Good evening!

Came across this rather odd-looking mount that's applied on a bronze piece or is cast that way. It looks like a roman pelta mount for horse harness but I can't see the suspension loop having any function.
Really puzzled by the big bronze piece it is fitted on.

Any thoughts what it might be?
 ???

Offline otlichnik

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Re: Roman odd mount
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2021, 06:00:37 pm »
How big is it?

I am wondering if it might be a matrix - a positive used to create the negative image in a mould which is then used to cast the item?

SC
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline n0x

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Re: Roman odd mount
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2021, 02:15:11 am »
... or an embossing stamp for metal or leather?

I think it is unlikely that it is Roman. Above I see two winged animals. This is very reminiscent of oriental motifs as they were used from antiquity to the Middle Ages and partly even longer. Below them could be horses' heads, unfortunately they are indistinct. Nowadays, things of this kind often come from the European south of Russia. Motifs and style are reminiscent of the Suvar (Chuvash) culture, which is strongly influenced by Mesopotamia and the area around the Caspian Sea.

The attached pictures are not exact matches, but they show what I mean. They come from the book: Yuvenaliev, Yuri; Yuvenaliev, S. : Культура суваро-булгар. Этническая религия и мифологические представления. The culture of the Suvaro-Bulgars. Ethnic Religion and Mythological Concepts. 2013 . It is written in Russian, with wonderful illustrations and captions in English. The captions to the attached pictures:

Winged Lion
Images of the Goddess of scorching heat and war – Sohmet (Sehmet):
1. Sohmet. Hurrian Egiptian relief.
2. Image of Sehmet on a bowl. Bulgar Ulus of the Golden Horde. 13–14th centuries.
3. Greek coin. Kaunos. 3d century BC.
4. Image of Sehmet on a coin of the 19th century. Engraving.
5. Image of Sehmet on a bronze mirror. Volga Bulgaria. 10–13th centuries.


Aji Dacha
Images of mythical Aji Dacha. Volga Bulgars. Bulgar Ulus of the Golden Horde. 10–14th centuries.

Offline Kilian O

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Re: Roman odd mount
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2021, 04:14:18 am »
How big is it?

I am wondering if it might be a matrix - a positive used to create the negative image in a mould which is then used to cast the item?

SC

I'm not sure Shawn saw it listed online and wasn't described. I'd guess arround the same sizes as similar harness mounts. Your theory of a matrix seems to be the most logical and I feel that might be what it is. It's a really intriguing. Do you know of any types that have like this one 2 animals (possibly Pegasus) on the top?

Offline Kilian O

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Re: Roman odd mount
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2021, 04:21:48 am »
... or an embossing stamp for metal or leather?

I think it is unlikely that it is Roman. Above I see two winged animals. This is very reminiscent of oriental motifs as they were used from antiquity to the Middle Ages and partly even longer. Below them could be horses' heads, unfortunately they are indistinct. Nowadays, things of this kind often come from the European south of Russia. Motifs and style are reminiscent of the Suvar (Chuvash) culture, which is strongly influenced by Mesopotamia and the area around the Caspian Sea.

The attached pictures are not exact matches, but they show what I mean. They come from the book: Yuvenaliev, Yuri; Yuvenaliev, S. : Культура суваро-булгар. Этническая религия и мифологические представления. The culture of the Suvaro-Bulgars. Ethnic Religion and Mythological Concepts. 2013 . It is written in Russian, with wonderful illustrations and captions in English. The captions to the attached pictures:

Winged Lion
Images of the Goddess of scorching heat and war – Sohmet (Sehmet):
1. Sohmet. Hurrian Egiptian relief.
2. Image of Sehmet on a bowl. Bulgar Ulus of the Golden Horde. 13–14th centuries.
3. Greek coin. Kaunos. 3d century BC.
4. Image of Sehmet on a coin of the 19th century. Engraving.
5. Image of Sehmet on a bronze mirror. Volga Bulgaria. 10–13th centuries.


Aji Dacha
Images of mythical Aji Dacha. Volga Bulgars. Bulgar Ulus of the Golden Horde. 10–14th centuries.

Thanks for your insight! These should almost certainly be Roman given how similar they look to other mounts having the same suspension loop. You can see what I mean in this picture.

Offline n0x

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Re: Roman odd mount
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2021, 06:12:57 am »
How Roman these mounts are, others can answer better than I can. They have the pelta-like shape element in common with the piece in your initial message. The pelta of the two mounts has probably a function, the other one hasn't. The shape is so simple that it is not suitable for assigning it to a culture. The winged animals are much more significant in my opinion.

Offline otlichnik

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Re: Roman odd mount
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2021, 08:02:33 am »
These two mounts are Roman, they have exact parallels from archaeological finds in various parts of the Empire.  The small loops, which only appear on a small number of items sharing the same design are believed to be suspension loops for light objects.   

The first item does appear to have animals promotes on top, though these are not unknown among Roman items - especially several types of 4th-5th century buckles.  They are of course used by other cultures too.  But the rest of the item looks a lot like Roman belt decorations of the 2nd century AD, similar to but not exactly like the Kloster-Neuburg type.

As for use.  Actual punches for leather or metal tend to be smaller as they need to be used with a hammer as a punch or die.  This item has a flat irregular back that would make it hard to used to emboss leather or metal but easy to press into clay to make a mould.  It could also just be a test product from one side of a mould.

SC


SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Online Virgil H

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Re: Roman odd mount
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2021, 10:38:01 pm »
Maybe I am missing something, but what do the original photos have to do with either of the other two posts with images? I see virtually no resemblances with designs or even the object itself. I realize this has nothing to do with actually identifying it, but I always try to learn about what I cannot see. To my untrained eye, this looks more decorative (as in maybe celtic knot design or something) versus animals or anything realistic.

Thanks,
Virgil

 

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