FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board

Numismatic and History Discussion Forums => Roman Coins Discussion Forum => Topic started by: seth on October 27, 2013, 03:53:58 pm

Title: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: seth on October 27, 2013, 03:53:58 pm
This is a scarcer issue of the common soldiers & standards type:

OBV: CONSTANS IVN NOB C; laureate, draped, cuirassed bust in paludamentum r.
REV: GLOR – IA EXERC – ITVS; 2 soldiers with 2 standards in between them.
EXE: SMHB* Heraclea mint.
REF: RIC VII Heraclea 139, rated R5
333-335AD.

It's an interesting early emssion for Constans at Heraclea with the IVN titulature which should've been used for Constantine II. The pictures are the seller's.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: rick2 on October 27, 2013, 04:53:47 pm
i would not pay any attention to the rarity listed in ric 7
some issues listed as C or S in the ric 6 are actually much much scarcer than a lot of the issues rated r3 r4 or r5 in the ric 7
Title: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: curtislclay on October 27, 2013, 05:35:37 pm
However this is a rather interesting and important rarity: Constans was called IVN only at Heraclea, and only on this one reduced follis, known to Bruun in one spec. in BM (officina A) and four in Vienna (off. B, Γ, and two with mintmark off flan).

So Cohen 70 valued this coin at 6 francs, citing Vienna, compared to just "C", meaning less than one franc, for standard GLORIA EXERCITVS types.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: Vincent on October 28, 2013, 10:24:45 am
Since we are on this subject, I would like to bring to the table another odd title from this mint of Heraclea. It is attributed to Constantine II and the obverse legend read:
CONSTANT NVS VM AVG with the same reverse but only one standard LRBC 947.
I for one have 2 examples of this equally scarce variant and actually believe it was minted for Constantine the Great as a posthumous issue under Constans, like his Aquileia issue. Constans was against these death commemorative and this may have been a concession to his eldest brother.
The VM may stand for  (VN MR or "Reverend Memory).
The normal type may have helped make these more acceptable in Constan's mind.

Wildwinds| Link (http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/constantine_II/_heraclea_RIC_viii_017.jpg)

a plate from the Wildwinds website.

It also has been suggested that the VM title may mean "Victor Maximus", a title Constantine II was awarded and also inscribed on his Rome issues with VIC.

Regardless, a very unusual issue for this very common type

Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: seth on October 28, 2013, 11:23:06 am
Although rated a measly S, I couldn't find another one online, which gets me to think how many of these rare varieties are out there but being the fact that gloria is such a mundane type they fly under the radar.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: Vincent on October 28, 2013, 12:09:00 pm
Here is another VM issue I found online:

http://www.chijanofuji.com/constantine2gloriaexercitus2.html (http://www.chijanofuji.com/constantine2gloriaexercitus2.html)

Seth, you may be correct in not being noticed. My second example was wrongly listed. Regardless, these are scarce because Constantine II issue as Augustus are scarce. I have not seen many of these.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: seth on October 28, 2013, 12:19:03 pm
I don't think they are that scarce, I have had many and somehow decided none was worth keeping. Although if I would have come across a VM AVG, I would have kept it.
Constantine II continued the MAX AVG (before going for the PF AVG) of Constantine I so many get them confused. Thanks for the link, good eye ;)
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: SC on October 28, 2013, 02:11:47 pm
I agree with Vincent that the CONSTANTINVS VM AVG coins from Heraclea are likely posthumous coins for Constantine I.  RIC notes that this is possible and presents the VM as Victor Maximus idea.  Guido Bruck suggested that the VM was for Venerae Memoriae.  Personally, as the closest parallel is the CONSTANTINVS MAX AVG issue at Aquileia I like the Victor Maximus option as it would be a closer parallel to that Maximus.  But we have no way of really knowing.

Sadly I own neither a CII VM nor a Constans IVN.  Nice find Seth.

Shawn
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: Vincent on October 28, 2013, 05:56:24 pm
Seth, check out a Forum thread here on the topic of Constantine II as Augustus.
I can attest the Heraclea "VM" issue is very scarce/rare. I spent years attempting to acquire one of these and was lucky to come across the two I found. The second one was by chance.
I agree that we may never know the real meaning of the letters. Perhaps one day some research numismatist will come up with the answer. Perhaps the type of headband, like at Aquileia< is the key to the answer?
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: seth on October 28, 2013, 07:48:51 pm
Hehe, Vincent, thanks for reminding me. I reread both the posts about Constantine II (as i read my own back then comment on one of them I could actually remember writing it, which is so consistent - I tend to remember even the most inconsequential thing that happened long ago but some important daily things somehow evade me) with pleasure.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: SC on October 29, 2013, 03:38:35 am
I think the key at Aquileia is not the head band but that through the three or four mint marks in question the GLORIA EXERCITVS type was issued with four obverse legends:  CONSTANTINVS MAX AVG, CONSTANTINVS AVG, CONSTANTIVS AVG and CONSTANS AVG.  If the two Constantine legends were not used consistently throughout the period we could think that they simply switched the one used for Constantine II.  But that fact that each mint mark clearly has two different Constantine legends implies two different Constantine's were meant.

Shawn
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: Vincent on October 29, 2013, 05:16:19 am
Hi Shawn,
Thank you for your answer.  I really just went by my copy of LRBC by Kent that listed the posthumous type of Constantine the Great with a "2aN" bust and the Constantine II issue with a "3aM" or "J" bust.
The Posthumous Constantine had a Bust that was laurel and rosettes, cuirassed in a "paludamentum".
Constantine Jr was either shown with a Bust that was with only a Laurel and cuirassed or one that had rosettes in the laurel.
You are correct that Constantine's legend of CONSTANTINVS MAX AVG was for him, while Jr. had CONSTANTINVS PF AVG.
Interesting, I really have not taken the time (sorry to say) to investigate the one standard Gloria Heraclea issues myself.
It would be a worthwhile effort to see if there are differences in the headbands and Busts. In Aquileia Constantine was shown with the Paludamentum, while Jr. was not.
Perhaps a hoard of ae's containing these that can be studied and will reveal more about these if it is recorded and studied.
Title: A possible "VM" Title Heraclea Gloria Exerctius for Constantine JR.
Post by: Vincent on October 31, 2013, 10:07:30 am
I just found this example that appears to be a "VM" issue of Constantine, From the portrait it is obvious the younger Constantine Jr. At least that is my first impression.
I have yet to examine the coin itself but clearly the obverse legend begins with CONSTANTI NVS(VMAVG). If it was the "regular" obverse legend it would have "DN" at the beginning "DNCONSTAN TINVSPFAVG" with a different obverse legend break! The other that was used was CONSTAN TINVSAVG another different obverse break from the "VM" issue and shorter legend.
Hard to say from the picture, may be an important discovery. Hope I can make out the letters (VM) when I examine the coin itself. The photo is not too clear.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: SC on October 31, 2013, 10:52:42 am
Couldn't it also be CONSTANTINVS MAX AVG - with a bad portrait?

Shawn
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: Vincent on October 31, 2013, 06:49:30 pm
Shawn, that is a likely possibility and to be honest I have not seen too many of  these "one standard" examples. There are plenty of two standard issues to look at and compare. I will do a few tricks to see if I can make out the ending, at least the letters after Constantinvs. I'll make a plaster copy, use foil and tracing paper and lead dust to see if I can make the letters out. Regardless, it is a coin that I'm glad to add to my collection. I'll report back after I have it in hand.
Pretty neat and overall sharp detail.
Thanks for you comment and interest.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: SC on November 01, 2013, 03:58:40 am
It is interesting.  And when I said "bad portrait" I meant if it was meant to be Constantine I because it looks so young as you pointed out.  It is actually a very interesting portrait and the detail on the reverse is great too.

Shawn
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: seth on November 01, 2013, 11:25:15 am
I also think Vincent's last coinis MAX AVG, I think you can actually see the X at 3o'clock.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: Vincent on November 02, 2013, 10:28:46 am
Thank you Seth, and I will take into account your impression. These issues were generally undersized with only a partial obverse reading.  LRBC writes...."in the one standard issue the legends and busts are frequently changed instead of a change in the mintmarks."  So, the portrait does have a bearing, as with the legend. Also, at the time of Constantine's death, a very fluid situation developed. So, let me examine and do the necessary "operations" to see if I can determine the 2 letters after Constantinvs. It may not be possible and if not, I'll likely attribute the coin to Constantine the Great, his last issue of Heraclea.  I did a quick search for other one standard issue examples, a couple came up, that did not help the topic. But as the coin below show, the more "normal style" bust that displayed for Constantine Sr. and of much better style as Shawn pointed out.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: numismaticman on November 02, 2013, 02:49:35 pm
  On this subject of rarer obverse legends of Constans , how rare are the GLORIA EXERCITUS type of SISCIA mint with the obverse legend
    FL CONSTANTIS BEA C ?
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: seth on November 02, 2013, 06:11:11 pm
I for one don't find them rare at all. Maybe the one standard ones are a bit scarce.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: numismaticman on November 03, 2013, 07:11:20 am
  Hi Seth ,
               Thanks for that response , it agrees with the impression that I have also . It is though of slightly more importance as the obverse legend only occurs at this one mint with the GLORIA EXERCITUS reverse with both one and two standards , I wonder why that is the case .
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: seth on November 04, 2013, 11:29:15 am
Unfortunately I can't answer your question about why this strange variation appears only at Siscia. Maybe someone else here has more insight about this.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: SC on November 05, 2013, 10:31:46 am
Can't answer specifically why but I think that they key is that while mints received some clear instructions  - such as the details of the design - other things such as mint and field marks, and at times titles, were not as centrally controlled.

This regional variance is what part of what makes collecting LRBCs fun.

Shawn
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: Vincent on November 18, 2013, 01:24:19 pm
Just received the Constantine  "Heraclea" possible "VM" coin and in hand I am sad to report it is not possible to determine the two letters after "NVS" in Constantine's name.
The planchet edge has a tiny edge "pit" defect where the letters are to be found. It could very well me a VM or MA. So be as it may, will list it as a Constantine the Great issue, since the coin is on the heavier side 2.24g. The last of his before his death from his mint. Very odd style issue coin. Looks official in execution, but the portrait has a younger profile.
I suppose that is what makes collecting these fun, sometimes the mystery and discovery (or lack of it). Thanks Guys for your opinions.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: seth on November 19, 2013, 03:23:33 pm
Vincent,

Ever since I saw your coin, I am on a look out for this elusive VM issue but no luck up until now. I think that this VM and the IVN for Constans might be the rarest issues for the type.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: Vincent on November 19, 2013, 08:29:36 pm
Good luck finding a "VM" specie, Seth. They are very hard to find. You'll likely find one in an unattributed lot or one that is overlooked as a "regular "MAX" Constantine. if you ever find one please post it I have a handful gallery of pics I'll include it there. As for the "IVN", I really never went looking for one, so can't comment on that one. Believe me there are plenty of LRBC's out there now,  I am just amazed on the output these mints produced, incredible. Very few LRBC can be classified a s truly "rare". You'll find one eventually. My hardest coins to locate were a Crispus Camp gate from Constantinople, A Hercules London issue Follis of Maximianus  struck during his second reign and a little ae4 of Rome of Julian II with a soldier carrying a trophy and dragging a captive. That Julian was especially satisfying because it was overlooked. Happy hunting.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: seth on November 20, 2013, 04:45:42 am
I must admit my ignorance to that Julian type. I have never seen one like it. I bet attributing it was a real treat :)
Believe me there are plenty of LRBC's out there now,  I am just amazed on the output these mints produced, incredible.
I agree, you just need patience and time on your hands to carry an extensive sweep through all the venues. Nowadays, I am on a lookout more or less every evening for a couple of hours but I seldom see real rarities
Let's have a little contest if you like - I'll keep looking for a VM and you start your own hunt for a IVN of Constans, let's see who finds it first :)
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: Vincent on November 20, 2013, 07:22:37 am
Seth, yes sorry the Julian II coin is elusive. One seller had one up for auction and it was misattributed or listed as unidentified, I don't remember which and I was sniped at the last seconds to acquire it. Well, that got under my skin a little and went out to "hunt" for one. Anyway, another person had it up and I noticed it because the reverse legend reads VIRT EXERC ROMANOR with mint mark R wreath P in exergue (mine is missing because it is very tiny 14mm!). If you have a copy of Kents LRBC's
the coin picture is in the Plate section IV # 693.
On my coin, which is somewhat worn, no beard is shown, and I bet more are sitting in collections misattributed because of that.
This is still a rare/scarce issue only minted in the city of Rome. Not many come up for sale. Is it worth much, probably not, but we don't collect LRBC's to make money.
If I see a IVN or a VM, I'll let you know in a PM. I really don't "need" them in my collection now, but it would be nice to have the IVN coin. You can have first crack at it. I imagine more are lurking out there that need to be attributed.

Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: seth on November 20, 2013, 09:28:54 am
Let's do this - I'll let you know if a IVN appears, you'll let me know if a VM appears, so instead of competing, we collaborate :)
Free market for the win! :)
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: Vincent on November 20, 2013, 02:08:56 pm
Hello again Seth, Ok partner, we have a deal. If I notice a VM out there, it's your if you want it. All I really need is a picture of it and specs. I am certain a few do not get noticed because this type is so common. I'll have first dibbs on the IVN, if I decline it's yours. Sounds like a win/win deal.
Happy Hunting. Forum auction has a Heraclea Constans that is one standard if you want to take a look. Nice interesting coin left facing bust.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: seth on November 26, 2013, 09:57:59 pm
Getting back to rare/interesting soldiers & standards types, I bought this yesterday, and although we have heavy snowfall here, I hope it reaches me safely  :-X

Constantine II as Augustus.

According to the seller, coin is 17mm 1.6g (the normal dimensions for late 337-340AD.)

OBV: CONSTANTI – NVS PF AVG; ladder-shaped diadem, draped cuirassed bust l.
REV: GLOR● - IA EXERC – ITVS; 2 soldiers facing holding spears and shields, one standard between them.
EXE: SMKΓ Cyzicus mint.
REF: RIC VIII Cyzicus 5var. (diadem type and officina unlisted in RIC)

Haven't seen this type of headdress before on this issue. Any notes?

(seller's pictures)
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: Vincent on November 27, 2013, 10:44:33 am
Hi Seth,
That is a worthwhile coin to look at. According to RIC your coin belongs to the 1st issue of the series, with ALL 3 Emperors facing left. He should be shown laureate, from my reading of RIC. Yours is obviously not and is clearly a ladder diademed, so it is unlisted!
I agree it is a #5 variation.  A cool coin and congrats on the purchase, you have a good eye. Cyzicus is one mint that has an interesting pattern of head bands, with a wide variety used, especially on the Providence Camp gate series.
After the death of Constantine, their father, I suppose the mint officials were unsure at first on how to display the brothers. So, this may well been one of the first coins issued until a clear directive was given.
So, the regular Constantine II is listed as "rare" in RIC and yours may well be "unique"!
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: Vincent on November 27, 2013, 10:51:51 am
Hi Seth,
That is a worthwhile coin to look at. According to RIC your coin belongs to the 1st issue of the series, with ALL 3 Emperors facing left. He should be shown laureate, from my reading of RIC. Yours is obviously not and is clearly a ladder diademed, so it is unlisted!
I agree it is a #5 variation.  A cool coin and congrats on the purchase, you have a good eye. Cyzicus is one mint that has an interesting pattern of head bands, with a wide variety used, especially on the Providence Camp gate series.
After the death of Constantine, their father, I suppose the mint officials were unsure at first on how to display the brothers. So, this may well been one of the first coins issued until a clear directive was given.
So, the regular Constantine II is listed as "rare" in RIC and yours may well be "unique"!

So, I went to "Wildwinds" and found an example of this series only minted for Constans. So, you have a picture here is the link:

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/constans/_cyzicus_RIC_viii_017A.jpg (http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/constans/_cyzicus_RIC_viii_017A.jpg)

LATE ROMAN EMPIRE: Constans, as Caesar 333-337. Third Son of
Constantine I and Fausta, born about AD 320, died AD 350.

 [Constans - Two Soldiers/One Standard Reverse Coin Image]

Bronze AE4, Minted at Cyzicus during the period AD 337-340, 16 mm. Diameter.

Obverse: CONSTA-NS PF AVG, laurel and rosette diadem, left
facing, draped and cuirassed bust of Constans.

Reverse: GLOR-IA EXERC-ITVS, SMKS in exergue. Two soldiers
standing facing one another, each holding reversed spear and
resting hand on shield; between them one standard.

Reference: A great portrait bust of Constans. Listed as Sear
#3970v, RIC VIII Cyzicus #13 (RIC Rarity - "R").

Grade: VF+/F+ with crowded legends. Outstanding detail in the
diadem and hair as well as the cuirassing. Some strike weakness
and/or die wear seen on the reverse. Even light brown patina over
all surfaces.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: seth on November 27, 2013, 05:48:02 pm
Hi Vincent,

Thanks, I was counting on your input; the perks of keeping an eye out for rare soldiers and standard(s). Still no VM though, hazard I guess :)
Speaking of left facing series, here is one really awkward little AE4, 14mm but ~3g heavy of Constans, also from the first post 337 series, this time at Heraclea (Heraclea 24)

Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: Vincent on November 27, 2013, 06:51:47 pm
Interesting, all three coins are from a different workshop! Interesting Ist series with a variety of obverses. I'll try to keep a lookout for more.
Maybe "Not in RIC" would be interested in listing your coin?
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: Gert on November 28, 2013, 05:24:12 am
I find it hard to believe that this VN type is a commemorative for Constantine the Great. Nothing in portrait or legend would hint at this being a commemorative issue, except for the letters VN, for which there is an alternative explanation in Victor Maximus. Both these titles Victor and Maximus are attested for Constantine II, and VICTOR is actually relatively common on some of his issues. So the obvious interpretation of the name Constantinus on this coin has to be the ruling emperor.
Attached a photo from my sold coins stock.
Regards
Gert
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: seth on November 28, 2013, 10:18:23 am
NOT IN RIC is for volumes VI and VII, this is volume VIII.
Gert: I also lean towards the Victor Maximus, a title that would fit with CII's ambitions as Constantine's eldest son.
Title: Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
Post by: seth on November 28, 2013, 12:58:02 pm
As this thread evolved beyond just my Israelian Constans IVN, I propose to use it as the official thread for scarce soldiers & standards types.
If agreed, could a moderator please pin it at sticky?
Thanks.
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Vincent on November 28, 2013, 08:25:12 pm
The other side of the issue is Constans was the authority of the Mint of Heraclea at this time and was against death commemorative issues. His Postumous Aquileia issue of Constantine the Great were pretty much regular issues. Perhaps the mint officials at Heraclea utilized "VM" to distinguish these from Constantine II issues? So, I feel there is a possibility that they may indeed be for Constantine the Great. Like with Aquileia, a hoard of coins may be discovered to determine the actual. Now, I am not stating Gert or Seth are likely incorrect, but only there is a possibility.
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: SC on December 01, 2013, 12:09:38 pm
The argument in favour of the VM issue at Heraclea being a posthumous coinage for Constantine I is very similar to that for the more widely accepted posthumous coinage at Aquileia.

As Vincent notes Constans, who controlled both Aquileia and Heraclea (or at least exercised de facto control over Heraclea at this time as RIC sets out), was opposed to the consecration coinage struck for Constantine I by Constantine II and Constantius II.  He did not strike any.  Instead he appears to have struck posthumous versions of the regular type for Constantine I.

There were two obverse legend styles used at Heraclea in this phase: CONSTANTINVS AVG, CONSTANTIVS AVG and CONSTANS AVG; and then D N CONSTANTINVS P F AVG, D N CONSTANTIVS P F  AVG, and D N CONSTANS P F AVG.  The CONSTANTINVS V M AVG legend is an anomaly.  It is unmatched by other legends and it seems odd that a third legend would be used only for Constantine II at Constans' mint.  The situation is the same as with the contemporary CONSTANTINVS MAX AVG legend at Aquileia which does not match the CONSTANTINVS P F  AVG, CONSTANTIVS P F  AVG, and CONSTANS P F AVG legends and was judged as posthumous in RIC.

I think that given the parallelism in the pattern of coinage at Aquileia and Heraclea we have to either accept both the CONSTANTINVS MAX AVG and the CONSTANTINVS V M AVG as posthumous for Constantine I or neither.  Personally I find the argument for both compelling, when combined with the lack of regular consecration types, convincing.

Shawn
 
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Vincent on December 02, 2013, 08:00:00 am
Thank you Shawn for your evaluation on this issue. It is true Constans provided Constantine II with the inscribed "VIC" on Rome issues during his reign, and with no variations of the title. Also, I am not a scholar on such, but does the placement have any significance?
On Rome it is at the beginning and Heraclea placed differently? There are so few of these available to examine, I am not certain of  the extend of the issue of VM. Was it struck throughout Constan's reign? Maybe a hoard will tell the story.
It is a puzzle that would be gratifying to crack. I also believe it is possible to "solve".
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Gert on December 03, 2013, 07:44:05 am
'Victor' is at the start of the legend in the other mints, if I remember correctly. Maximus normally precedes Augustus. So the placement would be different for 'Victor'.
If VM means 'venerandae memoriae', which I very much doubt, that phrase would be expected after the name and titles, not between the name and AVG.
Regards
Gert
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Vincent on December 03, 2013, 04:49:45 pm
Thank you, Gert, for your opinion and the photo of your coin from your past.
"VIC" was only placed at the city of Rome mint under the control of Constans for the AE 3 issues for a distinctive seperate type only reserved for Constantine II during their joint rule. True, as you and I noted, it was placed foward. It was also struck the whole joint reign of the 3 brothers.
In the case of Heraclea, as Shawn indicated, there was already a seperate coin issue for Constantine II as Augustus and he wondered why they would have another? As this "title" was not ever utilized before in this format, we really do not know if placement would have significance. It is a unique circumstance. If a hoard is uncovered and we can determine the exact time frame of striking that would help in perhaps understanding its intention. As I suggested, maybe the mint officials received a directive to produce  a "regular" postumous coinage for their father, Constantine the Great, for his "venerated memory" without any detail instructions. In the Thracian mints, this happened when the two soldier/ two standard issue was reduced and displayed the one standard. Mint officials took the order literally and changed the Urb Roma and Constantinople types with the reverse to one standard! This did not occur elsewhere in the Empire. So regional communication, primitive as was, sometimes produce unintended actions. Perhaps the order suggested this issue was for Constantine's "Venerated Memory", and the mint authorities at Heraclea inserted "VM" to comply with the order to distinguish it from Constantine II coins?
Since this is a rare coin, once the error was discovered, it was dropped quickly. On the other hand if it discovered it was an issue at the end of the 3 brothers joint rule, that would provide a strong case for "Victor Maximus" theory.
Again, this is a possibility.
Also, an examination of all known coins would be helpful. Comparing the headbands and other differences of the coins (number of dies, die links, weights, and strike positions). A nice project that I am undertaking.
As you pointed out, it could have been also for "Victor Maximus", the title given to Constantine II, Jr.
The question is, why was it dropped at Heraclea, while the issues of Rome continued the "VIC" title?
One final note; I'm only having fun with this coin "issue". It really does not matter what case it turns out to be.
I do hope it is a postumous coin, just because it makes the issue so much more desirable.
Title: Scarce 1st issue of Constantine II from Alexandria with "MAX"
Post by: Vincent on December 12, 2013, 09:42:26 am
Seems that mint officials were unsure when Constantine the Great died unexpectedly on May 22, 337. Probably to play it "safe" they struck coins with the honor "Maximus" for all three sons of Constantine in Alexandria initially. The coin I just obtained here displays Junior laureate, just as when he was Caesar, and on the reverse has the field letters S R in between the standard. RIC # 5 Vol VIII Alexandria
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: seth on December 13, 2013, 11:24:21 am
These are usually attributed by dealers to Constantine I and that is the premier reason why many think that coins of Constantine II as Augustus are scarce. If anything, I think (a somehow educated guess) that the scarcest of the 3 new Augusti GLORIA EXERCITVS MAX AVG series is Constans.
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Vincent on December 17, 2013, 09:31:08 am
Constans, 9 September 337 - 19 January 350 A.D.

52053. Bronze AE 4, RIC VIII 27, VF, Heraclea mint, 1.733 grams, 15.9 mm, die axis 0o, 346 - 348 A.D.; obverse CONSTANS AVG, rosette and laurel diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right; reverse GLORIA EXERC-ITVS, two soldiers standing facing, flanking a standard in center, heads confronted, each holds a spear in outer hand and rests inner hand on grounded shield, SMHD in ex; scarce; estimated value: $19.00

Just received this coin from Forum Coins and it is indeed a scarce one, Thank You Joe!





Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: seth on December 17, 2013, 09:50:11 am
I saw that one too. It's the same RIC as mine, posted a few posts up.
Congrats, good buy.

Later edit - actually mine is Heraclea 24, laureate and cuirassed bust l.
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Romanorum on January 25, 2014, 10:26:57 pm
Not the prettiest coin in the bunch, but the GLOR :dot: IA dot actually makes this one rather rare (R4). RIC VII, 136. Cyzicus
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: VonDrobac on January 31, 2014, 09:51:55 pm
How about coins from Aquileia that have palm branch left and right from standard, did not saw it so many (or just did not noticed). RIC says that are all common, are they?

VonDrobac

Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: seth on February 01, 2014, 01:03:15 pm
GLOR dot IA is only minted at Cyzicus for the one standard type. Some of them are quite uncommon, on the first page of this thread I posted a pretty interesting unrecorded variation for Constantine II as Augustus, bust left with ladder shaped diadem.
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Romanorum on February 01, 2014, 01:19:25 pm
GLOR dot IA is only minted at Cyzicus for the one standard type. Some of them are quite uncommon, on the first page of this thread I posted a pretty interesting unrecorded variation for Constantine II as Augustus, bust left with ladder shaped diadem.

Wonderful coin indeed! Especially with the diadem! As Vincent mentioned earlier, Wildwinds only has this type for Constans. Have you submitted it to Dane at Wildwinds?

Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Romanorum on February 01, 2014, 01:24:49 pm
Here's an interesting Barbarous imitative, purportedly of Trier.
Title: Re: Eye to Heaven interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Vincent on February 07, 2014, 07:40:39 am
Cute Eye upward to Heaven that is unusual to say the least. Hard to say if it was intentional. This was the last emission of Antioch of this long running GLORIA EXERCITVS series (a brief VICT AVG was struck before the coinage reform of 354). The flan was so small the Celator had a hard time with the mintmark letters, running out of room and they themselves appear going upwards too!
Does anyone else have a Eye to Heaven they like to share?
CONSTANTIVS AVG Head right with diadem
GLORIA EXERCITVS 2 soldiers with standard (line of dots!) with 2 dots on each side above!
RIC VIII 54
This is without a doubt one of the MOST common Roman coins ever!
I do not know which is more common, the Camp Gate issue or this one?
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Vincent on August 04, 2014, 11:35:58 am
Dealer photo (coin sold) of a scarce/rare example of the famous (at least here) VM title issue of Constantine II from Heraclea issued from the third officina.
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: SC on August 06, 2014, 09:02:08 am
Wow!  And a beautiful example at that.

Shawn
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Vincent on August 22, 2014, 07:10:03 pm
Shawn that was indeed a exceptional example of the VM Constantine II.
Here is one that I just added to my collection that is equally as interesting from the Aquileia mint in northern Italy under Constans control minted for his older brother, Constantine II.
After the death of their father, the three brothers issued death commemorative issues. These are one of the most easily acquired death issue of the Roman series.
However, Constans was against such issues and refused to mint legit types honoring DIVO CONSTANTINE and went along with regular 2 soldiers/ one standard type for their Dad.
The one here below is the "death issue" for Constantine with his title "MAX"
and the issue for Constantine II has the Pius Felix (PF) inscribed
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Frans Diederik on August 20, 2015, 09:12:41 am
Not that this coin is extremely rare or special, but just a nice quality from a scarcer mint.


Frans
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Caesarea on January 30, 2016, 05:07:56 pm
This is my rarest GE coin minted at Arles
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: agord on February 15, 2017, 06:36:48 pm
Not sure how rare this is but I have not found many 2 standard Delmatius coins.
RIC VII Constantinople 84, R5 in RIC
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Gert on February 16, 2017, 08:34:04 am
I am wondering if this coin is Arelate mint Constantine I (RIC 394) or a Siscia mint Constantine II (RIC 89/95). I couldn't find any non-stylistic criteria, except for the ex mark of course, to decide for either of these attributions, so I am hoping to see if anybody has some parallel examples.
Regards
Gert

Metrology: 14mm,
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: BiancasDad on February 16, 2017, 03:06:49 pm
Hi Gert,

Imho, the bust style is very typical for Lyons which would make Constantine II the only option.

RIC VIII 6 or 7 but I can't find any examples at the moment.

-Kurt
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Gert on February 16, 2017, 04:05:14 pm
Lyon! I didn't realise there was a christogram issue there as well. RIC 7 with the rosette diadem.

Definitely not Siscia. I think you are right that style would indicate Lyon. Thanks very much for your opinion on the matter, which pretty much closes the case.
Regards
Gert
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Akropolis on February 16, 2017, 06:53:00 pm
Great discussion.
So, is the image below (RIC VIII 96) properly attributed to Constantine I?
Thanks.
PeteB
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: SC on February 16, 2017, 08:18:09 pm
Constantine II.  He stole daddy's title at a few mints....

Struck well after Constantine I's death.  Likely circa 340.

Shawn
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Akropolis on February 18, 2017, 10:02:14 am
Thank you, Shawn!
PeteB
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: agord on April 08, 2017, 12:59:02 pm
 Received this one the other day. A rare legend for Constans, FL I CONSTANS NOB CAES. This legend was used only by the mint at Heraclea, and only on the last issue of the 2 standard type and the first issue of the 1 standard type.
RIC 7 Heraclea 141
18mm, 1.94g
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: SC on April 08, 2017, 01:24:42 pm
"Fli you fools!!!"

(Sorry couldn't resist.)

I have one with the same mint mark but have never seen one of the one-standard versions.

SC


Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Wojciech U on October 20, 2017, 08:49:00 am
I think it's perfect topic to ask my question.

I was just rumaging through my unsorted constantine pile, thinking there are only common types there. And I stumbled across this AQP.

If I attribute it correctly it's Constantine I, Aquileia RIC VII 118. Question is - what's that thing between standards? It's neither cross nor F, that happen on issues from this mint. Or maybe I'm paranoid and it's just some side part of standard?

If my attribution is correct - RIC says R4, but what's Your experience. How often do You see this particular type?

Thanks in advance,
duoluo
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: SC on October 23, 2017, 05:12:00 pm
I don't think there is anything between the standards.  Some standards have small projections which stick out at roughly a 90 degree angle near the bottom.  They are likely some sort of foot rest for planing the standard in the ground.  Yours might have these.

I also think that your coin might be a contemporary copy - an ancient fake.  The legends are somewhat crude.  The standards lean over.  The soldiers are uneven.  The diadem is unusual.

SC


Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Frans Diederik on August 10, 2018, 02:48:38 pm
Just to rekindle this potentially interesting thread, I stumbled upon the following coin:
CONSTANTI-NVS MAX AVG rosette diademed and draped bust of Constantine right /
GLOR-IA EXERC-ITVS, two soldiers with spears on ezach side of a standard with an annulet. CONS in the exergue.
What apears on the photo as deposit, is for the larger part the original silvering.
Constantinople regularly used the mintmark CONS without an officina letter/symbol, but, as far as I know, not on this type.
Who can shed some more light on this matter?

Frans
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: SC on August 14, 2018, 11:22:02 am
Likely an error.  CONS occurred on the SECURITAS type just before this and then on the Quadriga type right after due to flan size / design but should have officinal number on your issue.

SC
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Rupert on October 26, 2019, 05:52:22 pm
I've just discovered this thread and would like to add a coin. I don't own it but missed it on Fleabay years ago, which still bothers me - I let it go at 68.3 Euros. It's a Delmatius GE2 from Nicomedia and would be RIC VII Nic 194, but has the completely unknown obv. legend FL DALMATIUS CAESAR (instead of NOB CAES). All I have is the pictures that I saved back in 2009.

Rupert
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: SC on October 27, 2019, 11:23:41 am
Very neat.  The full CAESAR appears on the silver.  Perhaps that is what the engraver had previously made....

SC
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Merinda on March 21, 2020, 06:15:30 pm
Just to rekindle this potentially interesting thread, I stumbled upon the following coin:
CONSTANTI-NVS MAX AVG rosette diademed and draped bust of Constantine right /
GLOR-IA EXERC-ITVS, two soldiers with spears on ezach side of a standard with an annulet. CONS in the exergue.
What apears on the photo as deposit, is for the larger part the original silvering.
Constantinople regularly used the mintmark CONS without an officina letter/symbol, but, as far as I know, not on this type.
Who can shed some more light on this matter?

Frans

Please see a second example of the unlisted coin originally posted by Frans (image re-posted to allow for direct comparison, the new coin shown first). While the flan is a bit short at the place where an officina later might be, the exergual line is complete so that there would at least be some traces of the officina if it had one I think. This second example, struck from different dies, increases the possibility that this was an official (albeit short-lived) issue of Constantine I. RIC VII lists the marks for the start of the 1 standard GLORIA issue as CONS and then CONSA, i.e. that the CONS mark was used first followed by CONSA. The only CONS coin listed is for the SECVRITAS PVBLICA issue of Hanniballianus (number 145) which is placed after the CONSA coins of Constantine I and sons and the city commemoratives (numbers 137 to 144) despite the order implied in the heading of the section (perhaps a layout issue, placing the CONS issue of Hanniballianus after the initial CONSA coins of Constantine I and family allowed for all the Hanniballianus issues to be listed together, i.e. for both the CONS and CONSA marks?).

There is at least 1 precedent for a short-lived mark at the start of a new design eg. Antioch's first 2 soldiers issue (SMANTA) is listed by RIC (number 85) as only being known for Constantine I, before the mark was changed to SMANA, which is known for Constantine I and all the Caesars, and the city commemoratives. (NB SMANTA is now also known for Constantine II, Constantius II, and the city commemoratives, but not (yet?) for Constans or Delmatius per Not in RIC)

Another option could be that it is a coin of Constantine II issued after the death of his father, but this is less likely I think. Per RIC VIII, while the CONS mark is known for Helena and the Quadriga type, barring one rare coin of Constantius II of the GLORIA type (51A with the mark CONSA), all the GLORIA types for Constantinople have heads, rather than draped busts. Also, while some mints included the MAX variant in the obverse legend for Constantine II, Constantius II and Constans post 337, at Constantinople it is only known for Constantius, the aforementioned rare and somewhat anomalous 51A

Weight is 1.63 g
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Flav V on November 22, 2020, 11:40:46 am
Im reading the subject today, nice!

Normally the one standard indicate the weight and size reduce.. but can it be too for the ''memorial'' issue? I mean, is this changing only for the reducing size?
Is it in all mints?
Is there coins with one standard but with same size and weight than the two standards?
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Vincent on November 22, 2020, 12:16:26 pm
Interesting enough when the mints were notified of the reduction and change to one standard, three Eastern mints cities thought that included to change the reverse of their city commemoratives to the two soldiers one standard reverse!
Many catalogs describe these as hybrids, but it was just a misunderstanding by the officials on what to do! Regardless, this provides us collectors today with more to add their hunt.

And Victor Clark's page toward the end
http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/comm/

Interesting side collection 🙂
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Flav V on November 22, 2020, 01:18:14 pm
Vincent, as i understand only some mints changed their reverse for the size reduction? Therefore the other mints have still two standards but with lower size?
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Vincent on November 28, 2020, 10:21:53 am
Not familiar with those other mints...are you? This is the only example I know of that is out of the ordinary.
Of course, there may be isolated cases of such during the period of transition... The Roman Empire was vast and communications, by in large, primitive. During this period monetary policy was always in a flux and the currency unstable, especially the  lower denominations for the common folk
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Heliodromus on November 28, 2020, 03:39:16 pm
Flav, the mints did all change the Gloria Exercitvs design from 2 standards to 1 standard at this same time as the weight reduction in 335AD.

I'm sure the type with Gloria Exercitvs (1 standard) reverse and Vrbs Roma/Constantinopolis obverses were issued after 335AD, but it's not obvious exactly when - could either be 335-337AD when Constantine was alive, or 337-340AD after his death when these eastern mints (Heraclea, Constantinople, Cyzicus & Nicomedia) were controlled by Constantius II. Many of these types are double listed both in RIC VII (when Constantine I was alive) and RIC VIII (after his death), so those authors don't seem sure either.

We also see Vrbs Roma/Constantinopolis obverses paired with a different reverse, VOT XX MVLT XXX, later c.347AD issued by Constantius II from all his mints (above four, plus Antioch and Alexandria), which has to be deliberate given that other Vrbs Roma/Constantinopolis types were not being issued at that time.

So, what to make of the 335-340AD Vrbs Roma/Constantinopolis Gloria Exercitvs types ? Although rare, they don't seem rare enough (especially from Constantinople) to be mules. I find it hard to believe they are due to a misunderstanding at these mints (we could ask why suddenly after 335AD and not before when Gloria Exercitvs with 2 standards were being issued?). Given that these were only issued from Constantius II's mints, and given his later obviously deliberate pairing with VOT XX MVLT XXX, it seems to me most likely these were issued deliberately by Constantius II after Constantine's death in 337-340. I'm not sure why we don't also see them from Antioch and Alexandria - it's possible that they exist but (like Nicomedia, Cyzicus) are just very rare, or maybe this was just a very brief type immediately following Constantine's death, and was limited to the mints geographically clustered near Nicomedia where Constantine died.

Ben
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Vincent on December 03, 2020, 12:19:24 pm
Nice recap, Ben, and some valid points of consideration. Seems different sections of the divided Empire had some independence and divination in coin types.
I just read this paper by David Woods on the period of Constantine the Greats death and it is worth reading over for those among us collecting this period

Numismatic Evidence and the Succession to Constantine I

David Woods
Numismatic Chronicle 171 (2011)

https://www.academia.edu/7070181/Numismatic_Evidence_and_the_Succession_to_Constantine_I?email_work_card=title


ONTROVERSY
 surrounds the sequence of events between the death of Constantine Inear Nicomedia on 22 May 337 and the promotion of his three surviving sons –Constantine II, Constantius II, and Constans - from the rank of Caesar to Augustusin Pannonia on 9 September following.
 The primary problems concern the dateof the massacre of most of their male relatives within the wider Constantinianfamily, including Dalmatius their cousin and fellow Caesar, together with his chiefsupporters, and the establishment of responsibility for this event. Unfortunately, theearliest surviving literary sources allude only
eetingly to the events of this crucial period and their authors clearly felt inhibited by the continued reign of one of the biggest benefactors of the events of that summer, Constantius II, from treating themas fully and frankly as they might otherwise have done. On the other hand, laterauthors are usually prejudiced against Constantius II at least, if not his father and brothers also, chie
y on account of their religious policies, so that their accounts arenot necessarily as reliable as they may at
rst seem, even when they do not actuallycontradict one another, which they often do. Hence there is a need to look beyondthe literary sources and to extract the maximum information possible from the onlyexactly contemporary evidence that we have for the events of 337, the coinage.Burgess seeks to do precisely this in a recent paper where he reconstructs the eventsof the summer in detail, relying chie
y on a careful analysis of the coin data.
 The purose of this note, however, is to highlight the hidden assumptions underlying hissubsequent interpretation of the results of his analysis of the coin data, the fact thatthe evidence does not always prove what he claims it to prove, and to suggest analternative interpretation of the analysis where possible

He questions the conclusions of the write up by Burgess in his paper The Summer Of Blood

Very interesting...a lot we can only surmise
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: SC on December 03, 2020, 06:00:37 pm
What is very interesting about the Vrbs Roma/Constantinopolis Gloria Exercitvs types is the geographic distribution of their production.  Though more common at some mints than others, they were clearly made at the four Propontic mints plus the nearby mint of Thessalonica.  To me, these types offer some of the best evidence for the administrative power of the Rationalis Summarum.  It appears that, for some reason, the rationalis summarum with responsibility for the Propontic mints issued instructions to make these coins.


The following is small except from my forthcoming book on late Roman coin types (in which I also address these hybrid types):

"Mint Structure.

Important decisions about late Roman coinage – what, when and how much – were made at the highest level, generally by the central offices of the Comes Sacrarum Largitionum.(24) During periods when the Empire was divided, there was usually a Comes Sacrarum Largitionum in each part of the Empire, though one was in theory superior. Sometimes this supreme Comes Sacrarum Largitionum had control or influence over the others, sometimes not. Within the Comes Sacrarum Largitionum, minting fell under the scrinium a pecuniis (coinage office).

Each mint had its own Procurator Monetae who was under the (or one of the) Comes Sacrarum Largitionum.(25)  There was also an intermediate level of bureaucracy between the Comes Sacrarum Largitionum and the mints - the Rationalis Summarum, a regional official in charge of several mints. This latter fact helps explain why certain groupings of mints are often seen, during the late Roman period, to share certain traits - designs, mint and field mark forms."

SC
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Heliodromus on December 05, 2020, 11:04:08 am
I'd missed Thessalonica - an interesting mint for these if it was deliberate. RIC VIII lists these (58, 59) both as R4, yet is only able to cite Voetter-Gerin as a source. There is a specimen of RIC 58 on WildWinds. I'd like to see a few more of these before being convinced they are not mules.

RIC also lists a single (R5) Vrbs Roma from Trier, RIC VII Trier 541, which I'd consider most likely a mule unless other specimens can be found.

I also have the Rome coin below in my photo files, which again I'd assume is a mule - especially as there are no others from any mint for this earlier time period.

The reason Thessalonica is interesting is because it is the only mint not controlled by Constantius II, instead being in Constans territory (age 14 at the time). I'd be a bit leary of drawing any conclusions from this without being convinced it was intentional, but if so the mint clustering on geographical proximity basis rather than entire emperor-controlled territories (no Antioch or Alexandria, no other mints of Constans), along with the rarity of these types, might point to the interregnum after Constantine's death as the time when these were issued, and there may have been a period of confusion and less centralized control.

Ben

Edit: Looking at the RIC VIII introductions for Heraclea and Constantinople, I see that control of Thraciae (incl. these two mints) from 337-340 is unclear. The Constantinople introduction says it first passed to Constantine II in 337, then only to Constantius II in 340, but that would represent a weird gerrymandering of control. It would seem more logical if it had originally been given to Constans, on whose other territory it bordered, although that would then require him to have voluntarily given it to Constantius II in 340 after he killed Constantine II and assumed his eastern territory.
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Lech Stępniewski on December 05, 2020, 12:50:26 pm
I'd missed Thessalonica - an interesting mint for these if it was deliberate. RIC VII lists these (58, 59) both as R4, yet is only able to cite Voetter-Gerin as a source. There is a specimen of RIC 58 on WildWinds. I'd like to see a few more of these before being convinced they are not mules.

RIC VIII THESSALONICA 58 and 59 are both from officina  :Greek_epsilon: which is expected because officina  :Greek_epsilon: struck exclusively Urbs Roma and Constantinopolis before (RIC VII THESSALONICA 229 and 230). But there is an interesting exception: also majority of Delmatius coins comes from officina  :Greek_epsilon:

http://www.nummus-bible-database.com/rechercher-une-monnaie.htm?page=1&personnages=17&ateliers=21&collections=&vendeurs=&motscles=&numric=228&numnbd=&legendes=&nombreResultats=10&btRechercher=Rechercher

30 coins with clear officina letter
A - 2 ex.
B - 6 ex.
:Greek_Gamma: - 3 ex.
:Greek_Delta: - 4 ex.
:Greek_epsilon: - 15 ex.

I wonder if they could use good die prepared for Delmatius together with Urbs and Constantinopolis obverse dies just for a small addition to their production.
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Vincent on December 06, 2020, 08:59:41 am
Thank you 😌 all for the recent posts and much appreciated and absorbed!
These also had me fascinated and it is indeed indicative of the structure authority of the mint districts, IMOP.
One other later type that has caught my attention was the later issue of the Eastern mints of the VICT AVG type of Constantius Ii and Constans ..Victory advancing left, holds wreath and palm.
According to the LRBC it was minted at Heraclea, Constantinople, Nicomedia, Cyzicus, Antioch and Alexandria.
A small As module issue of say circa 341-346?
Any thoughts about these...I only have one in my own collection
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: SC on December 06, 2020, 11:03:32 am
So, with the VICT AVG you have a different situation.

In 341, presumably not long after the dust settles from Constantine II's death, you have a switch from the 330-341 coinage model (the GE, VR, Constantipolois + family) to a new model. 

By 342 this model has settled to the VICTORIAE DD AVGG Q NN Two Victories type in the West and the Vota type in the East, but at the start, in 341, you have an entirely Victoria-based model. 

Various one and two Victory types are in use in the West from 341 to likely early 342, before settling on the Two Victories type.  But in the East, the one victory VICT AVG (VICT AVGG at Alexandria) was used 341 to 342 before being replaced by the Vota.

The idea of a break in coinage for several years during this period is very outdated thinking (even LRBC had the coinage struck through 341-346 (they used a too-early start date of 346 for the FTR coinage).  By the 1990s the break-in-coinage theory was no longer in vogue.

SC

Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Vincent on December 07, 2020, 09:17:42 am
That clarifies the sequence for me, thank you so much for taking time to explain.
Suppose the Eastern part of the Empire had a slow down in small change output because the VICT AVG are hard to come by  on the marketplace, while the Western type is very common.
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Heliodromus on December 07, 2020, 10:49:23 am
The VICT AVG types are certainly very scarce, but given the volume of coinage issued both before and after (the western-only VN-MR and vota types), it doesn't seem there was any production constraint. Some mints such as Antioch, running with 15 officinas (!!!) must have had huge output.

Ben
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Vincent on December 07, 2020, 05:39:58 pm
Thank you for the clarification once again. Seems  the monetary system was unstable and from what I read the two brothers initiated their currency reform in an attempt to reform it with the Fel Temp Repartio  series. But that's for another post.
There is certainly not a lack of LRBC on the marketplace.
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: SC on December 08, 2020, 09:21:17 am
There may have been fewer coins minted in the East.  There was certainly more coinage circulating already and so less need to strike new coinage.  Any small AE coin of roughly the same size could be used as change in much of the East so Judaean, Nabataean, Seleucid, Ptolemaic, Greek, and of course a huge mass of "Roman provincial", etc. were still in use.

That said, for 341-348 you need to take into account the scarce VICT AVG/AVGG of 341-342 plus the quite common VOT XX MVLT XXX and VOT XV MVLT XX types.

In the West there was still a huge number of earlier cons, especially those of 330-341, but likely far less coins than in the East, so there was likely more need for coinage - despite the lower population.  But the Western coins of 341-342 include many scarce types - VICTORIA AVGVSTORVM of Lugdunum, VICTORIA AVGG one victory and two victories of Siscia and Sirmium, and the two victories both facing left of Rome.  The normal VICTORIAE DD AVGG Q NN Two Victories type was likely only struck at Trier, Arelate and Thessalonica at this time.  It is only when the VICTORIAE DD AVGG Q NN Two Victories type spread throughout the West in 342-348 that the numbers really took off.

SC
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Flav V on December 11, 2020, 11:11:04 am
Nice exlpanations Congius and Otlichnik  :)
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Ayse T on November 23, 2022, 02:58:04 pm
This is a scarcer issue of the common soldiers & standards type:

OBV: CONSTANS IVN NOB C; laureate, draped, cuirassed bust in paludamentum r.
REV: GLOR – IA EXERC – ITVS; 2 soldiers with 2 standards in between them.
EXE: SMHB* Heraclea mint.
REF: RIC VII Heraclea 139, rated R5
333-335AD.

It's an interesting early emission for Constans at Heraclea with the IVN titulature which should've been used for Constantine II. The pictures are the seller's.

Crazy coincidence but I've been stuck on (almost?) the same coin for a while now and I was actually on the forum to ask about that. The problem with mine is that rather than  letters, it seems that the "carvings" on the bottom of the reverse side are more of symbols like an Omega and probably an H and a T or an N. I was wondering if that happens often and what it actually means since I haven't found any examples of it online. After reading the quotes on the post, I've paid more attention to the other side, I believe that it's written Constantinus ii on the coin I have in my hands but I can't read the surroundings of the name (I can barely see OIS which I'm not sure of). But I've noticed that the bust looks quite young.
Regards,
Ayse.
Title: Re: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.
Post by: Curtis JJ on January 15, 2023, 05:41:28 pm
The Rare One? "VM"

I suspect I have one "VM" type Constantine II. What do you think?
I wouldn't have known about "CONSTANTINVS VM AVG" types if not for this thread. Not sure how well I understand it as it is, but glad to have been alerted!

(https://i.imgur.com/0YxWea4.jpg)

The dramatic double-strike was the reason I took notice, but it's a complicating factor. It came from CNG's recent sale of the Matin Wettmark Collection of error coins. (He's a Swedish collector and author known for world error coinage.)

From the same group lot, I suspect this tiny 8mm brockage probably would've been a (British imitative) GLORIA EX. if Constantine's bust wasn't jamming up the dies!
(https://i.imgur.com/B724R2z.jpg)


Common Ones but Interesting Backstory:

These ones are interesting mainly for their collection/hoard history (below), though 1 or 2 are attractive enough.
If I have it right, they're all common types:
1. Constantine the Great MAX AVG from Antioch; 2. Constantine Jr. MAX AVG from Siscia;
3. Constantine Jr. PF AVG from Constantinople; and, 4. Constantius II from Constantinople.

(https://i.imgur.com/DV0bRZF.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/JmyYU0H.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RhCc2ji.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/geW55Um.jpg)

They're all from the collection of Ken Bressett (b. 1928-) and the "Lincoln Higgie Hoard, 1967."

Bressett is the well-known numismatic author & former ANA President. (See Smith, Am. Num. Bios., 57-8 [LINK] (https://archive.org/details/2012AmericanNumismaticBiographies/page/57/mode/1up).) Of these coins he wrote: "The Lincoln Higgie Hoard was discovered in Turkey by Lincoln W. Higgie, III, in 1967 and sold to me intact." But unfortunately no further circumstances given. (The Hoard is described as 40 coins in CNG Keystone 6, but it's clearly a cut-and-paste error. From the listings there must be >60.)

"Bill" Higgie (b. 1938-), the third, is on pp. 203-4 of Smith's ANB [LINK] (https://archive.org/details/2012AmericanNumismaticBiographies/page/203/mode/1up?q=higgie), or see a reduced bio from Wash U/Newman [LINK] (https://nnp.wustl.edu/Library/PersonDetail/977). At least one of the prior Lincoln W. Higgie's is also well-known in numismatics, and no doubt was also known to Bressett [LINK] (https://www.coinbooks.org/club_nbs_esylum_v19n28.html#article13).