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Author Topic: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..  (Read 4856 times)

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Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« on: January 04, 2014, 11:52:32 am »
Constans Phoenix with Symbol 3 in the right field..

Hi All

 I found an interesting Constans FELTEMP.., Phoenix  type coin from Siscia
The revers side have a big Simbol 3 on the right field not in Exergo..
The RIC listed as Common , but this is the first one when I see the last 30 years

May be some of you are interested...

Best regards
 Q.

Constans (333-337 A.D. Caesar, 337-350 A.D. Augustus), AE-3 Follis, RIC VIII 247, Siscia, FEL TEMP REPARATIO, Phoenix,
avers:- DN-CONSTA-NS-PF-AVG, Cn8, D3, Diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right.
revers:- FEL-TEMP-REPARATIO, Phoenix, radiate, standing right on pile of ashes.
exergo: -/Symbol-3//Γ-SIS, diameter: 18,5mm, weight: 2,25g, axis: 1h,
mint: Siscia, date: 348-50 A.D., ref: RIC-VIII-247-p-366,

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-105383
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline SC

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Re: Constans Phoenix with Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2014, 05:30:13 am »
Nice.  I have never been able to get one.  I am surprised at how large the symbol is. 

Shawn
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(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2014, 10:45:49 am »
Hi Shawn

Yes it definitely looks interesting.
See if others have not seen before.

regards

 Joe
All the Best :), Joe
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Offline Vincent

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2014, 08:42:57 am »
I've been collecting for some time now and never seen that symbol. Looks likes what hook of some kind.Be interesting if another example shows it. Does not appear to be a "defect" in the die or flan.
That is why LRBCs are fun to collect, new discoveries.

Offline SC

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2014, 10:22:24 am »
The symbol is for the 3rd (gamma) officina.  No ones knows where they come from.  Why only at Siscia?  Some local Pannonian script??  Nothing else is known using this script and the indiginous Pannono-Celtic people of the Sava valley did not have a known alphabet and were anyway fully integrated into the Empire by the end of the 1st c AD.

The issue where these symbols appear in the exergue are quite common, at least for a couple of the officinae.  But this one with the mark in the field is apparently quite rare.

Shawn
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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2014, 02:32:33 pm »
 :SisciaVIII_1: :SisciaVIII_2: :SisciaVIII_3: :SisciaVIII_4: :SisciaVIII_5:
they are the symbols,
 this coin have the 3.rd one,
commonly they are in exergo

this large symbols are only the RIC-VIII-247...


regards
Q.
All the Best :), Joe
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Offline dougsmit

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2014, 07:46:13 pm »
This is a wonderful coin.  For the benefit of those not aware of this series, this symbol is ordinarily found in exergue and the same size as the mintmark letters.  The large one shows what the small was trying to be.

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2014, 07:53:19 pm »
I assume you noticed that RIC rated this #247 as not just common but the super common C2.  We all knew those RIC rarity ratings were not worth much. 

gavignano

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2014, 09:58:50 pm »
A great coin indeed! I've never seen a symbol in the field anywhere near as big as this one for this coin type.

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2014, 03:53:00 am »
Thank you Doug and Gavignano your notes.

I found another one in my collection coins from Constans, but which also shows the Symbol (symbol 4 :  :SisciaVIII_4: ) box on the left and smaller. Suddenly I could not find reference to this in the RIC.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-105820

best regards

 Q.

All the Best :), Joe
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Offline dougsmit

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2014, 09:18:39 am »
The mintmark on the galley appears to be lambda which is not a choice so I would have read it as an A as you did.  However the 4 in field suggests we should read this as a delta instead since all of the other examples we have seen match the extra letter and the officina.  Correct?

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2014, 01:11:38 pm »
Yes Doug that I mean we have an extra officina letters like symbol 4 in the left field ???

Like unlisted ???

 Q.
All the Best :), Joe
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Offline siscia_avg

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2014, 12:37:00 pm »
Galley type with mark in left field is RIC 248.

RIC authors made mistake with position of mark (they list it as right same as Phoenix) and rarity rating of course, but http://www.tesorillo.com/aes/027/027i.htm lists them correctly. 

Both Phoenix and Galley are really scarce, I have 1st, 3rd and 5th officinae of Phoenix type RIC 247, and have seen around dozen pieces in total.

But Galley type, or RIC 248 is much harder to come by, I only saw three examples so far. And I have been maniacally checking every ebay listing for years,  looking for those rare Siscian coins.


And regarding alpha or delta on Siscian mintmarks, first rule could be if they touch on top its delta, if they resemble H or N or I I its alpha, but again I have coins which defy this rule.

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2014, 02:24:21 pm »
Hi siscia_avg

Thank you very much your notes and information,
i have this info from the tesorillo hompage but I do not remember which home page was  :)..

I have some other examples 1 or 2 may be but not the same condition....

Best regards

 Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

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All the Best :), Joe
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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2014, 05:26:08 am »
Fantastic coins!  Thanks for sharing.  And thanks for your insights siscia_avg.  That makes sense and would make it an alpha mark then.

Does anyone know more about where the marks come from??  Croatian scholars must have worked on this question.

Shawn
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Offline Holding_History

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2014, 07:49:53 am »
Very nice! Great condition as well as rare, never seen one of those before.
All the best,
Nathan

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2014, 11:09:08 am »
Thank you very much Shawn and Holding History ...
May I have some more example but bad condition..:(,  I try to find and make some good photo.. :)..

Best regards
 Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline agord

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2014, 08:10:22 pm »
Bought this one today. Sellers photo.

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2014, 03:03:10 pm »
Hi agord !

 Nice find.. ;) +++
 Regards
 Q.
All the Best :), Joe
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Offline agord

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2017, 09:28:36 pm »
Since I finally managed to accumulate a coin from each workshop I thought I would resurrect this old thread. 2 phoenix type and 3 galley but all workshops that issued the "large symbol in field" together.

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2017, 03:54:34 am »
HI agord,

Very impressive and nice and rare collection of this kind of coin... :) ;)

Congratulation  +++

Q.
All the Best :), Joe
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Offline Randygeki(h2)

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2017, 04:09:36 am »
All very neat!

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2017, 04:12:47 am »
Thank you   +++

Q.
All the Best :), Joe
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Offline SC

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Re: Constans Phoenix with a very big Symbol 3 in the right field..
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2017, 09:24:33 pm »
Wow.  Very nice.  I have not seen a couple of those Galley examples.

Shawn
SC
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