Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: LRB hoards...why?  (Read 5646 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ardatirion

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 498
  • Veni, vidi, vomui.
LRB hoards...why?
« on: May 02, 2007, 06:10:54 pm »
A thought occured to me: according to pretty much every text I've ever read, hoards generally consist of the largest denomenation available. But why are there SO many hoards of LRB's uncovered? You'd think that, if someone were willing to bury a couple of hundred coins in the ground, he'd scrounge around and find some silver. Now, connect this to the status of the silver coinage. I don't know about you, but I haven't seen very much silver coinage of Constantine and his heirs. According to Gresham's Law, the bad money forces the good out of circulation. But wouldn't this mean an increase in the amount of silver coinage in hoards?

Don't quote me on any of this, I'm still thinking it all out. Plus, I haven't really examined any data. Just trying to start an interesting thread.

Offline mix_val

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1266
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2007, 07:30:27 pm »
How large are the hoards?  Small finds could be explained if near battle sites.
Bob Crutchley
My gallery of the coins of Severus Alexander and his family
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=16147

oldcoinz

  • Guest
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2007, 08:01:10 pm »
but I haven't seen very much silver coinage of Constantine and his heirs.

That's because there was not much silver minted.

Offline Ardatirion

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 498
  • Veni, vidi, vomui.
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2007, 08:36:34 pm »
That's because there was not much silver minted.

Thats what I figured. But still, why the hoards? Maybe they considered the coins issued after that to be bad, and hoarded the now-common LRB's. I'm going to assume that there are a decent number of hoards. If they were individual losses, they had to be in circulation and would probably have been remelted at one point or another.

Offline Barabus

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 348
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2007, 09:18:22 pm »
 Farely new to this site.What is a LRB?
Organized religion is the second oldest profession, and nowhere near as honest as the first.

oldcoinz

  • Guest
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2007, 09:30:06 pm »
But still, why the hoards?

One reason (and there could be many) is bronzes were hoarded after coin reforms or retariffing. A reform might change the amount of silver in a bronze coin-- raising or lowering it. So, for instance, a person might hoard bronze coins with 3-5 percent silver, while bronze with less silver still circulated-- so Gresham's law is still working.

Farely new to this site.What is a LRB?

Late Roman Bronze or LRBC= Late Roman Bronze Coin

Offline Ardatirion

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 498
  • Veni, vidi, vomui.
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2007, 10:07:51 pm »
ahhh, I never thought of it like that. It never occured to me that one would hoard bronze for its silver content.

Offline maridvnvm

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4444
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2007, 04:27:50 am »
How large are the hoards?

One solid example I can give is a hoard of LRB found in Bristol, UK in 2004. A man was digging a new fishpond in has back garden. He hit a hoard of 11,460 LRB, which were bought by the local museum for £22,500.
Regards,
Martin

Offline areich

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 8706
    • Ancient Greek and Roman Coins, featuring BMC online and other books
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2007, 04:43:06 am »
How do they come up with these figures and
do you just have to accept what they offer you?

Andreas
Andreas Reich

Cibalia

  • Guest
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2007, 05:05:42 am »
The British Museum bases the price on an item(s) current market value. There has been a stink about this of late because the buyer is setting the price! there have been many cases of undervaluation, which is discouraging treasure hunters to declare.

Offline areich

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 8706
    • Ancient Greek and Roman Coins, featuring BMC online and other books
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2007, 05:38:09 am »
I'd suppose the value of a hoard coin to be MUCH higher than 2 pounds.
Or am I mistaken in thinking that 'hoard coin' generally means good preservation?
Andreas Reich

Offline PeterD

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1483
  • omnium curiositatum explorator
    • Historia
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2007, 05:43:07 am »
That fact that low value coins continued to be hoarded shows that hoarding wasn't a special event, but a way of storing money in the same way that we would use a bank account today. Low value means large quantities of coins. You wouldn't have wanted to carry large amounts around with you. Changing your money to gold or silver coins (if available) would be a bit like buying foreign currency today. You would lose on the deal!

I have written a short article on the general subject "The Imperial Roman Economy, Hoarding, Gresham's Law and All That", which you can access from my web-site below -click on "NEW" at the bottom.
Peter, London

Historia: A collection of coins with their historical context https://www.forumancientcoins.com/historia

Offline maridvnvm

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4444
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2007, 06:03:39 am »
I have now found updated information and I was incorrect in my quote above. The correct valuation was £40,000 where £22,500 came from the Lottery Heritage Fund. The original article only contained this last piece of information. I apologise for my error.

Here is an image of some of the coins during excavation.


Regards,
Martin

Offline areich

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 8706
    • Ancient Greek and Roman Coins, featuring BMC online and other books
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2007, 06:33:34 am »
That picture is too small and I couldn't find any others.
40.000 pounds sounds better and of course a museum can't pay the market value of these coins if they were individually attributed and sold. Of course I know I couldn't resist to keep at least 100 for myself, but if that came out, especially if I sold them that would probably be a serious crime. Is that stealing from Her Majesty?


There's a larger but not really good picture here:
http://www.southglos.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/8F8C8D53-0F51-4147-893A-266B97F20AF3/0/PTE070371.pdf

That's a great article Peter, but the pictures don't load for me.
Andreas Reich

Offline leetoone

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 632
  • Yorkshire, England
    • Lee Toone
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2007, 08:33:38 am »
I examined part of the Thornbury hoard in March 2007. Many of the coins were quite grotty and I would have been reluctant to pay £4 a coin for some of them. Also nearly all of them were W&T, Constantinopolis or Two Standards types. I think the finder did well to get £40,000 for them as a lump sum.

The hoard will be published on-line soon by the British Museum.

Lee

Offline mix_val

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1266
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2007, 10:06:14 am »
Not much good to a collector but probably a PhD thesis in analyzing the coins
Bob Crutchley
My gallery of the coins of Severus Alexander and his family
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=16147

Offline leetoone

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 632
  • Yorkshire, England
    • Lee Toone
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2007, 05:45:56 am »
Here is a summary I recently prepared about another LRB coin hoard. A massive hoard, part of which is still being offerred for sale by the trade.

THE NETHER COMPTON HOARD by Lee Toone FRNS

This massive hoard of 22,670 Roman coins was found by Mike Pittard whilst metal detecting in a field near Nether Compton on 19th February 1989. The field is by the side of a trackway, the other side of which is a known Roman building. The actual finding of the hoard was photographed and a report was published in The Searcher magazine (Issue 44, April 1989).

The hoard was deposited with the Yeovil Museum by the finder in 1989. It was subsequently returned to the finder, sold and dispersed through the trade in 1994. No detailed record was made of the content of the hoard. The pottery vessel and some 33 additional coins that had remained stuck to the pot were donated to the museum and remain there. Although Nether Compton was never recorded or published, a limited amount of information has been gleaned from people who have handled it or part of it.

It was a very large mid-Constantinian hoard and typical in composition, all but about 7% consisting of the very common bronze issues of the AD 330s (the Urbs Roma and Constantinopolis commemoratives and the Gloria Exercitus type in the names of Constantine I and his sons). There were no coins of the 2 Victories type suggesting that the hoard was deposited around AD 339. The latest estimates are that there were about 20,000 to 21,000 Gloria Exercitus (two standards and one standard types) and  1,000 to 2,000 Urbs Roma / Constantinopolis commemorative types. There were no later types but around 600 earlier coins, the earliest dating back to Aurelian or before.

Other Constantinian period hoards found in Britain of comparable scale are the 11,460 coins from Thornbury (due to be published shortly) and 17,548 coins from Bishopswood (Numismatic Chronicle 1896). In both cases these hoards were deposited later as there were coins of the 2 Victories type (AD 341-8).


I'll try and dig out the photographs.

Lee

Offline leetoone

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 632
  • Yorkshire, England
    • Lee Toone
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2007, 05:49:54 am »
Here are the Nether Compton photographs - courtesy of Mike Pittard, the finder.

Lee

Offline mauseus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 3089
  • Ah Allectus, my trusted friend.......
    • Later Roman Coinage
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2007, 11:55:47 am »
Hi Lee,

Didn't realise you had photos of the Nether Compton find "as discovered". The hoard did produce some very nice coins, despite the way they look in the pot! The following specimens are some from my trays from that find.








Regards,

Mauseus

Offline maridvnvm

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4444
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2007, 11:59:29 am »
Looks like it produced some very nice coins indeed if these are indicative of the quality.
Martin

Offline leetoone

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 632
  • Yorkshire, England
    • Lee Toone
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2007, 12:34:40 pm »
Yes Martin, it did. I have quite a few from the hoard myself. "It was the dealer that did it."  ;D Seriously, the dealer cleaned them all several years after they emerged out of the ground and I'd say he did a pretty good job.

Lee

Offline Heliodromus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2176
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2007, 12:47:57 pm »
Other Constantinian period hoards found in Britain of comparable scale are the 11,460 coins from Thornbury (due to be published shortly) and 17,548 coins from Bishopswood (Numismatic Chronicle 1896). In both cases these hoards were deposited later as there were coins of the 2 Victories type (AD 341-8). [/i]

The 1896 Numismatic Chronicle is available online thanks to Google, and you can even download it as a PDF.

http://books.google.com/books?id=idr9h69Bb6UC&dq=intitle:numismatic+intitle:chronicle+date:1896-1896

Other than the overall makeup of the hoard I didn't find too much of interest, except for a couple of Gloria Exercitvs from Lyons with the Tau-Rho vs Chi-Rho on the standard, plus another reported as having a Tau-Rho with two vs one cross-bars on it. I also have a couple of coins myself (a FEL TEMP galley and a HOC SIGNO) where a Tau-Rho has been used in place of the expected Chi-Rho.

The pictures of the Nether Compton hoard as found are awesome - quite drool worthy!. I assume the dealer that cleaned them must have done so chemically given the volume, but they certainly came out very well.

You don't happen to have any more LRB hoard pictures?

Ben

Offline leetoone

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 632
  • Yorkshire, England
    • Lee Toone
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2007, 02:04:00 pm »
This is an interesting extract from the following webpage:

http://www.archaeology.co.uk/others/thinktank/who/tt.htm

* There is an interesting addendum to the saga of the Nether Compton hoard. In September 2005, I received an email from John Cummings, as follows:

I thought you may be interested in what really happened with the Nether Compton hoard. I purchased the hoard from the finder and the landowner jointly. The hoard was available for sale after being retrieved from Dorset County Museum. The finder, a Mike Pittard, acted absolutely correctly when he found the hoard and handed it in to the authorities. It was declared not to be treasure trove with instructions to return the coins to the finder. Both the finder and the landowner agreed that the coins should be left at the County Museum to allow the hoard to be recorded. Some 12 months later, the finder contacted the museum to ask when he could collect his coins Apparently he was spoken to very abruptly and told that he had already received the hoard back. It took very strong communication from the finder, now under serious suspicion of theft from the landowner, to convince the museum that he had not in fact received the hoard. After a prolonged search, the hoard was found in a cardboard box in a cleaner's cupboard at the museum along with the cleaning utensils. The boxes in which the hoard was contained hoard had not been opened since it has been received from the coroner's court.

Mr Pittard retrieved his coins. Since he was under an obligation to pay the landowner half the value of the hoard, the hoard had to be sold and it was. Approximately a month after I purchased the hoard I received a letter from Dorset County Museum stating that they had heard that I had purchased the hoard and assumed that I was going to do the proper thing - record it fully for them. I telephoned the curator and explained that I had effectively tied up my entire working capital to buy the hoard and that it was not possible either to delay selling the hoard, nor to spend several months of work recording it. The conversation became rather terse on his part along the lines of "irresponsible dealers, loss of archaeological knowledge" etc etc. I pointed out that his museum had had the hoard for a year in order to carry out exactly that function and had failed to do so and asked him why. "We do not have the staff to carry out that kind of work" was the verbatim reply. I suggested to him that if his department were responsible people then they would surely each have been prepared to contribute a couple of hours voluntary work a week to record such an important find. I found it quite amusing that he could not seem to grasp the idea of himself and his staff working without getting paid for it - yet he continued to insist that if I was a responsible person who was interested in the nation's heritage, I should devote three months of my time working for them voluntarily to do the job they should have done.

All the above is verifiable with the finder Mike Pittard.

John Cummings Lodge Antiquities [j.cummings@btinternet.com]


Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2007, 03:25:39 pm »
Sounds like Dorsetshire is in competition with several fabled counties and provinces and parishes in parts of the USA South.  But you can call on Boy Scounts (or Girl Guides/Scouts) or other such groups to help in laying out coins carefully on scanners (so as not to scratch the glass!) or arraying them under a fixed camera within a frame corresponding to the image field.  Here in Louisiana it would be easy.  Any ACE group would be eager and willing.  Why didn't Dorsetshire even try?  Pat L.

Douglas

  • Guest
Re: LRB hoards...why?
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2007, 05:01:23 pm »
Not to mention, Pat, what the said youth groups could learn from this, and the museum could instill some appreciation of history. Very sad when a basically good system goes sour due to incompetence.

Doug

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity