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Author Topic: Refurbished Gallery of Greek and Roman antiquities at The Fitzwilliam Museum  (Read 3381 times)

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Offline Xenophon

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Dozens of ancient treasures - including a Roman version of the Swiss Army knife - are going on display in Cambridge, in a newly refurbished Gallery of Greek and Roman antiquities at The Fitzwilliam Museum.

Take a tour with Lucilla Burn, the museum's Keeper of Antiquities:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts_and_culture/8485654.stm

Offline Randygeki(h2)

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Dozens of ancient treasures - including a Roman version of the Swiss Army knife

thats awsome!   ;D

Offline mwilson603

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Impressive pieces, and that penknife is really interesting.

I have one question though.  There is one section where they re-paint a pottery piece that had been stuck back together.  Wouldn't that be the equivalent of smoothing/tooling a coin?

regards

Mark

Offline Randygeki(h2)

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Thats a good point. I guess you could say they are adding to the pttery rather than taking away from as you would with tooling and smoothing a coin. But on the other hand they are alteretaring  both pottery and coins in major ways.

Offline Optimo Principi

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Can't wait to go! Cambridge is a 3 hour drive from me so will have to go for a weekend break soon.

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mwilson603

I think is worse than smoothing/tooling a coin.A coin is just a coin.

Offline Bud Stewart

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This could be the start of a great discussion on the differences between repairing/conserving and alerting historical artifacts. 

The type of restoration being depicted on of the slide can indeed be taken to an extreme, but in this case the efforts appear to be an attempt at repairing a piece without deceiving anyone.  The narrator clearly stated that the intention was not to make the pottery appear unbroken, the speaker said that they could achieve this if that was their desire.  The efforts were being directed to present the breaks in a manner that isn’t a distraction to the viewer.  The piece has already been altered with a foreign substance (glue), so I find no reason to object to the conservatortoning down’ the cracks with pigment. 

Offline Bud Stewart

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Quote from: Bud Stewart on January 29, 2010, 02:37:43 pm
This could be the start of a great discussion on the differences between repairing/conserving and alerting historical artifacts. 

The type of restoration being depicted on of the slide can indeed be taken to an extreme, but in this case the efforts appear to be an attempt at repairing a piece without deceiving anyone.  The narrator clearly stated that the intention was not to make the pottery appear unbroken, the speaker said that they could achieve this if that was their desire.  The efforts were being directed to present the breaks in a manner that isn’t a distraction to the viewer.  The piece has already been altered with a foreign substance (glue), so I find no reason to object to the conservatortoning down’ the cracks with pigment. 

Sorry, double post.  Somehow I made a mistake.  Forgive me, I'm new  :-[

Offline mwilson603

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Quote from: Bud Stewart on January 29, 2010, 02:37:43 pm
The narrator clearly stated that the intention was not to make the pottery appear unbroken, the speaker said that they could achieve this if that was their desire.  The efforts were being directed to present the breaks in a manner that isn’t a distraction to the viewer.  The piece has already been altered with a foreign substance (glue), so I find no reason to object to the conservatortoning down’ the cracks with pigment. 
I was watching it in the office and had no sound on so maybe some of the intention was lost without it.  However, I struggle with the idea that smoothing is seen as not the ideal, and tooling is seen as very bad, on a coin.  Whilst cosmetic work on an ancient pot appears to be accepted.  Even re-patination of a coin is seen by many as wrong, so why the different standards?

Offline Bud Stewart

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Very good point mwilson603.  When determining if the action taken is beneficial or detrimental, we must consider intent, admittedly often not an easy task.  When altering the current state of a coin, or any item of historical value, the outcome must not be to deceive or re-create.  I can appreciate that this same ethical point is often considered in the field of art restoration.  Perhaps we should examine their ‘Code of Ethics’, and if we deem their standards acceptable we should demand that all coin conservators, even amateurs, to use these as their guide.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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I see nothing wrong with the restoration described.  I want to be able to recognize and enjoy the orignal beauty of objects more than I want to see the way it was dug up from the ground, which after all was in fact often a pile of bits. 

I actually feel the same way about coins.  I don't really hate minor smoothing, filling pits and holes and repatination.  For me the biggest problem with coin restoration is that in the commercial market it can be used to deceive.  Also, if poorly done it is damage not restoration, fake patinas are often terrible, and filled pits often show up later as bronze disease.  I consider all tooling damage, not restoration.  A significant percentage of high end large bronzes coins are repatinated.  Many sestertius from old collections were smoothed.  Smoothing used to be the normal thing to do and those coins are often very attractive with old cabinet patinas.  The many Jewish bronzes with amazing desert patina's didn't all get them naturally (though many are natural, I can't tell the difference).  I recall reading something by Meshorer that said he thought that the addition of a highlighting patina was appropiate for Jewish coins and it actually seems to be customary to "enhance" those types with a bit of colorful dirt.   

When you go to see the ruins of a temple, in most cases, the columns were not always standing.  They put them back up.  Paintings get cleaned and where paint has flaked off touched up.  Pottery and glass are glued back together.  Noses are restored on sculptures. 

Nothing lasts forever.  Art does not last forever.   Antiquities will not last forever unless maintained, and sometimes restored
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Offline Randygeki(h2)

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I totaly agree, I'd much rather a restored temple rather than a pile of marble.

I live in northern Arizona, and they have a very large amount of potery on display at the museum. High up on the walls they have various shards of potery with different type of paterns and styles. Below they have restored, touched up, repainted, and glued together potery.  Both are cool, but I very much like the restored potery more. When they repaint, they dont do what they think/guess looks best, they try to fallow the petterns and designs.

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Yes,you are right about art restoration etc,but we also have to think WHO and WHY does this restoration.
I just can't pretend that i agree with all this "love for the art" hype.If they really care for the art,they should try to restore their own culture's artistic achievements,and let these return to their birth places.


Offline Joe Sermarini

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I surely don't subscribe to the return to birth places.  Such talk has little place on a board about ancient coins hosted by an American ancient coin shop.  We don't have ancient coins "born" in America and you can't have mine back. 

The heritage of the ancient world belongs to me as much as to anyone living in Europe.  I can trace my ancestry to Romans, Vikings, Normans, Celts, Danes, Germans, etc.  My ancestors supposedly (if you can trust the Royal family trees of Europe) include Charlemagne and Probus.  So, surely I can claim the coins of Probus as mine?  My claim must be stronger than those of Italians who did not decend from the emperor himself. 

The culture of the Romans, Greeks and the entire ancient world belongs to all mankind because all modern culture came from it.  Current geography or genetic background should have no special claim.

When I go to a museum here in America with my children, I want them to be able to see some of the art and artifacts of the ancient world that is OUR heritage too.

I do believe there are some exceptions to this.  Buildings and their parts should, for the most part, stay where they are.  And nothing should be broken or damaged to remove them.  Archeological sites should keep most of what is found and display it, but if they have too much to display it should be sent elsewhere.  When people visit ancient sites, people should see what was there.  So, if you are specifically speaking of the Elgin marbles, I think you have a better argument than when talking about pottery or sculpture (or coins). 

But talk of cultural patrimony has no place here.   
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nikos k

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Yes Joe,i know this is against the rules and i don't want to say anything else.Belongs to modern politics.
I am also not famous for my diplomatic skills,and this is a problem when talking about modern politics.

Offline Xenophon

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What the conservatores are doing with the pottery surely equates to, having found a coin in several bits, sticking them back together and partially smoothing over the joins in order to make an object that can be displayed as a whole. I see nothing wrong in this.

Tooling a coin prior to selling it commercially equates to repainting a pot, often with a design that is nothing like the original, in order to deceive and make an enhanced profit. That is criminal.

Offline slokind

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The 19th c did restore quite freely to make the vases and the stories on them more accessible and sympathetic to a larger number of museum visitors (and not only them, but some collectors, too).  The results were often very bad indeed.  If you have a collection of old Alinari photos (and those from the Gabinetto Fotografico Nazionale, the GFN, in Rome) you will see for yourself.
I remember Dietrich von Bothmer explaining to a group of us in the conservation rooms of the Metropolitan Museum what out to be done on a red-figured vase and why: the white plaster that fills in the gaps should be painted black or, on a figure, an earth-orange tint distinguishable from the color of the clay, because white patches are terribly distracting, but coloring in black or clay-like color helps the original work to stand out and to stand out intelligibly.  Contours should not be restored.  The most famous example is that of the chest of the horse on Euphronios's Leagros cup, Beazley ARV2, p. 16, no. 17, Munich 2620.  The generically rounded contour of the restoration has now been removed.  I mention this, because this restoration was trying earnestly to be innocuous, but always bothered even young students sensitive either to horses or to art.  No, don't be tempted: you are not, we are not, Euphronios, and his concept and drawing of a horse are not ours, nor can ours be his.
Smoothing, as defined by Curtis, is fairly analogous to what Dietrich von Bothmer (and others for the last 50 or 60 years) have done, but it is more necessary and less annoying to the very sensitive, PROVIDED IT IS DONE EXTREMELY WELL, than the tinting of plaster on vases.  Anything whatsoever that tries to supply something of the engraver or vase-painter that is lost is dubious at best.
Persons who pay four- and five-digit prices for bronzes do not like roughness.  The high-priced, highly skilled conservators are, evidently, most frequently called upon to please these buyers.  It is the same for work in other media, by the way.
I think it is very important to distinguish the cosmetic work done on, e.g., sestertii from the butchery perpetrated on some Mr. Tooley, whether by smoothing or by metal tooling.  Personally, I HATE re-patination, but it is not so bad as getting into the metal or drawing new features or drapery on vases.
What about Thorwaldsen's addition to the Aegina sculptures?  There's a whole caseful of them exhibited in the Glyptothek.  I mention these as among the best of their kind.  The key is, hands off the surface of the original marble!  Simply restoring the circle of a discus on a Myron Diskobolos is, IMO, perfectly right, provided you have the arc of the circle preserved.  Many post-Renaissance restorations, of course, are hilarious.
Avoid all hybris!  You aren't the artist (and neither were the Imperial ateliers that made that copia of statuary).
Pat L.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Tooling coins is objectionable because it's a form of commercial fakery aimed at getting a higher price for a mediocre piece. I've no objection to resoration, whether of paintings, vases, or whatever, provided it's easy to see what's original and what isn't. So trying to restore a painting, say, using the same materials and style as the artist would be deception, but blocking in areas of paint to bring out the original picture while making it obvious that the work is by another hand is OK.
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Offline Optimo Principi

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I'm going to the Fitzwilliam tomorrow so will add some pictures when I return.

 

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