FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Numismatic and History Discussion Forums => Roman Provincial Coins Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Jochen on September 23, 2005, 08:27:38 am
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This is a Geta AE30 from Augusta Traiana:
obv. AVT KP CEPT - IMOC GETAC, Bust, laureate, cuirassed, seen from behind, r.
rev. AVGOVSTHC - TRAIANHC, coiled serpent with radiate head
I have two questions:
1) Is the snake the so-called Agathodaimon or something else?
2) Can anyone give me a correct attribution of this coin?
Best regards
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Jochen, we had a thread about that beautiful coin some weeks ago: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=21739.msg144763#msg144763 According to Luigi, this specific coin is not listed in Varbanov.
Lars
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Thanks, Lars! I have not mentioned that thread. And the deity? Any opinion?
Best regards
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Ever since I saw the largish sculpture of such a snake in the Constantza (Tomis) museum, and read about the one labeled Glykon on a coin of Abounoteichos, and began to see various degrees of departure from real snake appearance on the coins, I have been trying to answer your question. The ones from Alexandria illustrated in LIMC are surely Agathodaimon. The one from the Athenian agora has a human head, so is no ordinary snake, and neither are those with radiate nimbus and a forked fish tail. Whether the person who handled the money (and the persons who ordered it made) called it Glykon or Agathodaimon or both interchangeably is what I cannot ascertain, though opinions can be found. The fact is that agathos daimon means just that, and the household snake is certainly an agathos daimon (while Glykon purported to be more and other than that) suggests that ANY of the four-coiled snakes could be referred to as an agathos daimon, while at Alexandria they had a specific cult of their own. The Danube region more likely shared the Pontic cult, but we don't know which of the unlabeled images were referred to as Glykon and had a sub-Asklepieian cult.
Pat L.
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Thanks, Pat! The serpent deities are still very unknown to me. So I have to dive into this materia!
BTW Here is a statue of Glycon(?) from Constantia/Bulgaria, pardon Romania naturally!
Best regards
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Yes, that's the one I saw and could not forget and mentioned in my last post. As you see, the head is neither human nor leonine, and it certainly is not reptile (unless you're thinking of the dragon in Fritz Lang's famous film, perhaps). Because of its dating, based on technique and, I think, context, and because the Glykon cult is Antonine to Severan, mostly, so far as we know, and because Contstantia (but it's in Romania) is just a day's sail from Abounoteichos, I do not think that the museum is unjustified in identifying their snake with the mantic one. Pat
Here is a human-headed one on a coin, which is not seen very often.
04 09 02 Nikomedia, Bithynia. Caracalla. Laureate, head to r. ANTONEINOS | AVGOVSTOS. Rev., true, human-headed Glykon snake, from a city that, like Abounoteichos, is in Bithynia. NIKOMEDEON DI | S NEOKOR[ON]; in the ethnic, the mu-eta is ligate.
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Does the uniform depiction of having 4 coils have a specific meaning? (lovely coin btw) I have noticed this for all the issues from this region.
Many thanks
-:Bacchus:-
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Starting with my explorations of the snake-god I found Lucian of Samosata online: http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/lucian/lucian_alexander.htm
Glycon, the snake-god, seems to be an invention of the Greek prophet Alexander of Abounoteichos, which Lucian called charlatan and Alexander the oracle monger. In his book about Alexander he wrote:
Then, too, they had long ago prepared and fitted up a serpent’s head of linen, which had something of a human look, was all painted up, and appeared very lifelike. It would open and close its mouth by means of horsehairs, and a forked black tongue like a snake’s, also controlled by horsehairs, would dart out.
A nice article with the title 'How inventing rituals for a new cult - Recycling of rituals, the formula of success of Alexander of Abounoteichos' by Angelos Chaniotis from the University of Heidelberg (in German) is found under http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:GhAtty4VaisJ:archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/volltextserver/volltexte/2004/5103/pdf/ChaniotisAlex.pdf+glycon+lukian+heidelberg&hl=de
Best regards
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Yes, just that text of Lucian is the grounds for the Constantza Museum's calling their sculpture Glykon, though only that one coin of Abounoteichos labels the serpent.
The question is, how many of the standard four-coilers should be called by that name, if any? Also, whether the very specifically radiate-nimbus fish-tailed snake, which at Pautalia is shown with an altar, is Glykon or Agathodaimon or a named divinity whose name we don't know or just a lucky snake. An even more basic question, indeed perhaps a necessary one, is that asked above: how come and with what meaning, if any, is the ordinary coin snake shown with four coils, symmetrically? When does this motif, with exactly four coils, first occur? How widespread is it? Without that basic information it may be pointless to try to give a name to it. I have noticed (I think) that Pautalia gives special attention to the elaborated snake, but you have a dandy one from Augusta Traiana, and they also occur occasionally all over the Danubian region, if not farther. It did not occur to me, though it is methodologically essential, that we need to establish the geographical and chronological range of the four-coiler and its relatives first of all. Pat L.
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I think Caracalla is the earliest Emperor I remember seeing with this reverse but it is possible it has appeared earlier.
I attach a picture of Philip II from Tomis where the snake has lost its symmetrical coiling, (actually there is probably still 4 "bends") but retained the radiate head
-:Bacchus:-
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And just to contradict myself here is an AE19 from Septimus Serverus (wildwinds source) from Philippopolis - with all four coils.
-:Bacchus:-
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And of course those wild and crazy guys in Trajanopolis just has to ruin it all and issue this monstrosity ;D (source wildwinds) also Septimius Severus with about 8 coils.
-:Bacchus:-
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The two coils of the snake on your first coin remind a bit on the laying eight, our usual symbol of infinity! Ok, I know it was invented not earlier than 1655 by Wallis.
Regards
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Does anyone have one for one of the earlier Antonines? Lucian suggests that our Stoic Marcus Aurelius was especially interested in the Abounoteichos cult of Glykon, but do we have plain four-coilers earlier than that?
Here is the earliest one on my teaching computer (I'm off line and off AC and off light and fans at the house, so this is from my office). Pat L.
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I found the little booklet, Miniature Sculpture from the Athenian Agora (1959). Here, closely cropped, is its last page. The little bronze is also in LIMC, and, of course, Ionopolis is the same as Abounoteichos; the name Glykon is in the exergue. I still can't recall one earlier than the 160s AD. Pat L.
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I spoke of particularly cult-like early Severan coins at Pautalia. Here is my pride and joy:
04 03 05 Æ28/30 12.97g axis 6h. Pautalia. Septimius Severus, laureate, bust to r. AVT KAI CE?TI CEVHPOC ? CEBA. Rev., Cult snake (with head resembling the sculptured one in Constantza Museum), bearded and fish-tailed, between two altars. At l., OVL[PIAS PAV] and below altar base T ALIAS and at r. KAI[-- and continuous below --N]ERATOV. Not found on line or in Varbanov, GIC, SNG Cop 2, or Lindgren 2 and 3. The smaller ones of Albinus have the snake and one altar (tree at left). Another like mine was sold shortly before (cc e-mail 17 Feb 05). The magistrate was Oneratus.
For the ones of Clodius Albinus, see CoinArchives.
To round out the picture, here is a Commodus of Philippopolis.
The Lucius Verus coins have to be 161-166; anyone find a Marcus Aurelius or an Antoninus Pius (I THINK not).
Pat L.
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Both those examples are quite spectular and I had never seen either before with such interesting reverses. I couldn't find anything in my new SNG Palistine - Arabia either (excellent and massively formated A3 book btw) though this would be on the cusp of the area in question.
-:Bacchus:-
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I found this new one of Commodus from Pautalia/Thracia. Here it is a coiled snake eating from an altar. Wether it is the snake of Alexander I don't know.
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I think the Pautalia type with the altar(s) is unique to Pautalia. If so, the coins for Commodus, Cl. Albinus, and Septimius (issued under Oneratus) come in very quick succession in the earlier 190s, say.
So, at this point, we do have earlier, similar snakes (for Lucius Verus) but none so far for Marcus Aurelius (so if Lucian's text is right, M. Aur. was not publicizing his interest) or Faustina II, let alone Antoninus Pius or Hadrian.
For a long time I thought that the reverses with crescents cradling stars were mid-Empire, but then the seven star issue, septemtrio[nes] Late Republican denarius, with TRIO cradled in the crescent and seven stars all round was brought to my attention.
I cannot recall, however, the snake pattern nearly so early. What, then, is the date of the Alexandria Agathodaimon reverses? I'll have to check that at the library, if someone else doesn't get to BMC or LIMC first.
The question is whether the coiled snake pattern, whether symmetrical (as for Geta and Caracalla) or not (which seems to be true of the earlier ones posted above), occurs in Pontic Asia Minor and Danubian cities earlier than the purported invention by Alexander of Abounoteichos of the Glykon cult and, if it does, whether the earlier occurrences can be equated with the Alexandrian cult.
It is interesting that the snake pattern is quite quickly generalized to the 4-coil pattern with only slightly non-reptilian extremities.
Pat Lawrence
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This is not exactly about coins, but nevertheless quite interesting: According to Lukian, Alexander of Abonuteichos got his first snake from Macedonia, from Pella exactly, where there were very big and tame dragons and snakes. Some years ago, they found at Vergina, not far away, some remains of a really big marble snake, which is still unpublished, but stored behind the museum, where it is visible. Very stunning phenomenon in my opinion.
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Nice found! I think there were many different snake cults especially in Thracia. The problem with the coins is to decide wether it is a depiction of Alexander's Glykon or not. The coin of Lucius Verus bears the name GLYKON on the reverse and looks like the statuette of the museum of Constanzia. And this statuette matches the description of Lucian. But with the snakes with the 4 elaborate coils we have a different situation. Even the head looks not human but snake-like. So sadly we have to live with a rest of incertainty.
BTW Here is a nice Agathodaimon from Alexandria crowned with Shkent and the typical caduceus and corn-ears from a friend of the German forum.
Best regards
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On Alexandria tets there are serpentine agathodaimones of the type shown above at least as early as Nero and for empresses as well as emperors. I do find the basically cobra-like character of these distinctive, though.
The Septimius Severus Thracian snakes are sometimes not quite stock 4-coilers but approaching that pattern.
Lucian said that Glykon changed the aspect of his head, in just the way we have seen above.
We need sources, written sources either by authors or epigraphic (with names and dedicatory legends) for all those Thracian snake cults.
After all, puzzling as it may be, the Pax Augusta of Claudius (thread in Roman) has the grace to be labeled when accompanied by a snake. Who knows what we'd make of her if she weren't?
Anyway, Alexandria's Agathodaimon has substantial chronological precedence over the Thrako-Moesian and Bithynian snakes.
BTW, as I recall, the 'statuette' in Constantza is lifesize even for a python. It only looks small in a little image.
The real problem is the same as, How many gods lurk behind the Thracian Horseman image? The number of cults involving snakes, lucky and mantic and guardian (and I suppose you could call the Erichthonios snake his avatar?) is legion. Pat L.
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Pautalia, to be sure. An ancient town I might like to visit. Here's the Marcus Aurelius to go with those Lucius Verus coins, beautiful, earlier than his son's. And it looks like a mixed breed snake, so possibly a Glykon (but not labeled, of course, so not demonstrable). Just found this on line.
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
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I managed to make myself so enamored of this subject and this coin that I bid on it, and for the first time, I think, from a major printed auction catalogue, won it by the skin of my teeth. It was listed as same reverse as Commodus's (as a youth) in Ruzicka, but, though the same design, it is not the same die--the sequence of the reverse legend is different. So far as I have been able to determine, the Marcus Aurelius is still unpublished except for the catalogue (Freeman & Sear Auction 12). So here it is, and thrilled as I am to have it, I shall re-new this thread (which already contains all the comparanda) rather than make it my Coin of the Day.
14 11 05 Æ29/32 21.01g axis ~6h Pautalia. Issued by Asel. Aemilianus. Marcus Aurelius, laureate, head to r. [A]N[T]ÔNINOS | AVR K[---(?). Rev., Cult snake with lion or wolf head, bearded, and fish tail, in specially designed winding (besides Commodus's corresponding snake, cf. Caracalla's at Nicomedia, RG pl. XCIV no. 226, with human head, which Waddington calls Glycon; it was the Glycon snake that changed the aspect of its head in real time at Abounoteichos, so the ID does not seem too bold). Although FS 12, lot 257 said that the reverse is Ruzicka pl. VIII, 18, no. 180, and this is, I think, certainly the same issue, Marcus Aurelius has his own reverse die (the legend on this one starts hHGE opposite the serpent's snout, and on Commodus's it starts opposite the tail. If Marcus's were more regular in shape, they would be the same size, but the Berlin Commodus is even heaview than my Marcus Aurelius. Even the Oneratus snake on the altar is more nearly the usual quatrefoil-coiled snake than this one and those at Nicomedia.
Also, I found the complete text of the Lucian essay at the Gutenberg.org site, in a wonderful translation by H. W. Fowler (and his brother), the author of "Modern English Usage" and "The King's English". It is too long to paste here, and since it is not .jpg, I can't just attach it.
Patricia Lawrence
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Very nice coin, Pat, and a particularly angry snake ! I find the lettering on the reverse is unusual too - or perhaps it is the lack of definitive border that make it appear so.
-:Bacchus
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Dear Discussion Board Enthusiasts!
I have been writing an article about these "Glykon" coins. There are actually specimens dating as far back as Antoninus Pius (from Abonoteichus, Tium, Amaseia) and Caesar Marcus (Pergamum), some quite "Glykon-like" while others only suggest Alexander's pet snake.
Try a search for images at the RPC IV website at http://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/
Mr. Lawrence, I have been trying to roughly date the Ionopolis (Abonoteichus) coinage of Lucius Verus with only limited success. (Syrian coinage is certainly unlike Alexandrian coins!) How were you able to narrow down the dating on the Verus specimen mentioned in this thread from "161-169" to "161-166." Is the portrait that indicative?
Best regards,
Mark Fox
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My humble apologies Patricia!
Best regards,
Mark Fox
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As in Cicero all homines sapientes are illi, it is quite all right with me that in Forvm all numismatici are guys, as in anthropology we all are anthropoi.
On the other hand, Abounoteichos / Ionopolis "objects" to being placed in Syria. See, between Amastris and Sinope, its actual location on the attached map from Sear's GIC (I'm sure he won't mind). In fact, its Pontic situation is probably important to the distribution of coins with that particular snake.
See the thread above for all of the considerations concerning what is very likely a 'Glycon' and what is a mantic-iatric-lucky snake by some other name or no particular name. The time-span for that name might be limited, too. Consider how many 19th c. terms, and today how many Freudian and Jungian terms, are no longer widely current (i.e., are confined to specialist literature). Lucian would be delighted to pick up on a cult with such comic potential, too. You should read a lot of Lucian to get the character of his mind. What's the name of the debunker of magical spiritualism who comes on TV sometimes?
You don't give any citations so I guess I'll have to search for the other Bithynian and Pontic coins that you cite? Pat L.
Agathodaimôn, as the name of a particular cult object, should, I think, be reserved for Alexandria and such other specific contexts as may occur where that name is actually used. After all, the word itself just means Good Spirit, so literally it means not much more than Our Lucky Snake.
Closer dating indeed is difficult, but occasionally a magistrate can be dated. Are the coins issued during the reign of Antoninus Pius actually contemporary with part of the long period when Marcus Aurelius was Caesar (not just when he was a boy!)? Check for magistrates. It has been ascertained in several cases which ones issued coins for both Ant P and M Aur still within the lifetime of the former.
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Dear Message Board Enthusiasts!
Thank you for your help, Patricia! Indeed, calling Abonoteichus/Ionopolis a Syrian city doesn't fit like you said; sorry about that. Yes, I have read a lot of Lucian lately. Also, I did cite a source for the coins that I previously described: RPC IV.
Hopefully this link works:
http://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/search/quick/?q=Glykon+serpent&search=
I know of only one very obvious Glykon-looking specimen from Marcus as Caesar, found here (as well as in the previous link):
http://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/3197/?search&stype=quick&q=Glykon+serpent&rno=12
Happily, it refers to a magistrate, listed as "Quartos, strategos for the second time."
Again, however, I am uncertain if it is contemporary with the Antoninus Pius issues which are simply listed as 138-161 AD. None of them carry a magistrate's name. Volker Heuchert had told me it may be possible to narrow the dating based on the style of portraiture, although I do not know if he exactly meant the Pius issues. I am particularly interested in narrowing the date range of the Verus coins, which involves a theory I discuss in the article.
I am surprised that no one has yet quoted Alexander's famous petition to the emperor.
"Was it not also a great piece of impudence on the part of Alexander that he should petition the Emperor to change the name of Abonoteichus and call it Ionopolis, and to strike a new coin bearing on one side the likeness of Glycon and on the other that of Alexander, wearing the fillets of his grandfather Asclepius and holding the falchion of his maternal ancestor Perseus?" (Alex. 58)
As the famous translator A. M. Harmon said in the satire's introduction:
"Although Alexander achieved honour not only in his own country, a small city in remote Paphlagonia, but over a large part of the Roman world, almost nothing is known of him except from the pages of Lucian. Gems, coins, and inscriptions corroborate Lucian as far as they go, testifying to Alexander's actual existence and widespread influence, and commemorating the name and even the appearance of Glycon, his human-headed serpent. But were it not for Lucian, we should not understand their full significance."
Thus, we find the significance of Alex. 58 in any discussion of "Glykon coins"
By the way, does anyone know where I may obtain permission to use an image of an excellent looking map like the one Patricia copied, or one of the statues/statuettes of Glykon?
Thank you for continuing the discussion.
Best regards,
Mark Fox
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Another (but different) Glycon from Nikopolis:
Nikopolis in Moesia Inferior, Gordian III., issued by Sabinius Modestus,
4 assaria / Æ27 (27-28 mm / 11,03 g), 238-244 AD.,
Obv.: AYT K M ANT Γ-OP[ΔIANOC AYΓ , laureate, draped and cuirassed bust of Gordian right, seen from behind..
Rev.: VΠ CAB MOΔЄCT - OV NIKOΠOΛЄIT{ΩN} / Π POC ICT , ({ΩN} ligate) , Glykon (upright serpent with a dotted and radiate nimbus) right.
Pick (AMNG), Dacien & Moesien I, 1, p. 517, 2104.
Regards,
A.
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One of Caracalla´s coiled serpents from Pautalia:
4 Assaria / Æ29 (29-30 mm / 15,26 g), 197-217 AD.,
Obv.: AYT K M AVP CEV - ANTΩNEINOC , laureate bust of Caracalla right.
Rev.: OVΛΠIAC ΠAVTAΛI / AC , erect coiled serpent left.
Ruzicka 685 / 690 var. ; Varbanov 3350 var. ; cf. BMC Thrace pg. 145, 32 ; SNG Copenhagen 710 var. ; cf. Moushmov 4259-60 ; Mionnet Supp. II pg. 389, 1112 ; (same obverse die as my Pautalia-Caracalla / Herakles Farnese coin).
Regards
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Coming back from holiday I am quite happy but (too) late to join the fray, but I could not resist adding my coin
http://www.mimala.nl/micoi/-05th/subpage/pr-caracalla-04.html
When I got mine (a few years ago) I did not yet know this site and had a hard time finding data, had it not been for Steven Minnoch.
I (btw) still do not know why this snake is radiate ...
Best Regards
Michael van der Lee _ NL
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Radiate for the gloria of divinity. If mantic, the radiate and/or nimbate head probably expresses divine inspiration. It's sort of like certain kinds of back lighting on television and in advertizing generally. Pat L.
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Thanks Pat ! But what does 'mantic' mean ?
Mi
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Of or related to the faculty of divination; PROPHETIC. Thus the Webster Collegiate Dictionary. It's the English spelling of Greek mantikos<mantis, a seer or prophet. The Glykon snake at Abonouteichos was mantic. Pat L.
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Hello,
i found another coiled serpent - but Domna from the Pautalia mint:
Pautalia in Thracia, Julia Domna, 193-211 AD., Diassarion(?) / Æ22 (22-23 mm / 7,38 g), Obv.: IOVΛIA - ΔOMN[A C]EB , draped bust of Julia Domna right. Rev.: ΠAYTA - ΛEΩTΩN , erect coiled serpent, head right. "Moushmov 4218" .
Can someone please check Ruzicka if this is listed (as my confidence in Moushmov numbers is limited).
Best regards
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Ruzicka 496 with IOVLIA DOMNA CEB on obverse, listed as Triassarion.
Lars
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Finally, an excuse to post the following, showing that the Constantia statue was far from unique:
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Very, very nice! I'm impressed!
Best regards
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Thank you very much, Jochen! At the time I got this it struck me as the very essence of ancient coin exoticism, and I liked to imagine it as a line drawing of the sort stuck in as fillers into the text of books on Roman Imperials (z.B., Vagi). Since then I have wandered into the wilds of Pisidia, and elsewhere, and have seen what exotic really is, and have become quite a fan of provincial portrait styles; after all, you cannot unsee the modernism of the last (!) century. George S
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A real Agathodaimon from Egypt:
Alexandria in Egypt, Nero, dated year 4 = 57-58 AD.,
Tetradrachm, billon (23-25 mm / 9,47 g),
Obv.: NEPΩ KΛAV KAIΣ - ΣEB ΓEP AVTO , laureate head of Nero right.
Rev.: NEO AΓAΘΔAIM , Agathodaimon snake, wearing shkent, in coils erected r., holding poppy and grain-ears r, LΔ before.
RPC I, 5230 ; Geissen 127 ; Dattari 266 .
Regards
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It certainly is like the best Agathodaimons in LIMC. Pat L.