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Author Topic: New Harsh Coins  (Read 5863 times)

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Offline Lucas H

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New Harsh Coins
« on: February 25, 2012, 06:10:03 am »
I had "Flavian Favorites" and "12 Caesars in Silver" which are my primary collecting areas.  Of course, the Flavians are part of the 12 Caesars.  I also have the odd Greek coins like the Van Alfen owls I'm so fond of, and a number of denarii of the Republic.  So with a new acquisition for 2012, I decided to start one thread for new "Harsh" acquisitions for the year. 

First up, and first coin of 2012:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-77662

A worn Vespasian, but I like it as it's my first mint mark ɸ.  My photography does not do a good job of showing it, but it is clearly there.  Was sold as Philippi, but this series is now attributed to Ephesus. It was fun researching the source of this discrepancy.

RIC II says the unusual issue marks, like the sideways ɸ, caused BMCRE to attribute these to different mints, including Philippi.  It goes on to say that die links and stylistic links put the whole group of coins in EphesusRIC II, page 42.

Mattingly actually references a "Hill" in attributing the sideways ɸ to Philippi, but states "the most probable conclusion seems to be the coinage is essentially one throughout" which I take to mean all in one mint, as there is "no marked distinction of style" between the coins in this series.  BMCRE II, page lxiv. 

RPC, Vol. II, part 1 again notes die and stylistic links attributing all of the coins in this series to one source.  It still questions the meaning of the sideways ɸ, but places the coins with this mark in Ephesus.  "A mint at Ephesus for the whole group seems the most likely interpretation at the moment, thought the explanation of the other marks remains perplexing."  RPC II, page 126. 

Offline David Atherton

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2012, 06:34:19 pm »
Lucas, that is a really great example from one of my favorite mints!
The shared die links between different mint marks unquestionably proves there was only one mint - Ephesus. IT was chosen because one of the mint marks (EPHE) is known for that city.
A most fascinating series.

Offline renegade3220

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2012, 09:01:03 pm »
Lucas, nice as usual. Keep 'em coming. I always enjoy browsing your gallery and leaving comments on your nice collection.

Offline Lucas H

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2012, 10:18:21 am »
Ok, three new ones, from good to best!

1.  Vespasian uses Augustus' reverse with the laurel trees.  The Flavians are the first I'm aware of that used so many antiquarian designs. This one has a worn flan, but full legends.  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-77757

2.  Tiberius.  I've been wanting at least two each of the 12 Caesars (Gius and Claudius may be beyond my means).  I've been struggling with Tiberius.  For such a long reign, he had so pitifully few choices.  What, do I need another "tribute penny" with plain legs?  (well probably, but that's another story). So I was thrilled to get this Tiberius.  The condition is worn and the reverse legend is off the flan, but the portrait is Tiberiushttps://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-77759

3.  Vespasian "o" mint.  A little background on this.  I've watched coins here an at other retail sites intending to get them only to have them bought from under me before I acted.  I've lost more coins at auction than I have.  Sometimes with relief, and others with regret.  I've regretted a few that have got away, but not very much or for very long.  I let this get away without acting a couple of months ago, and really regretted it since.  The mystery of the "o" mint is alluring to me, and I have been looking for another to no avail.  The dealer who had offered me this first, then listed and sold it, was under strict instructions to find me another.  The one that got away!

I got a package from my dealer friend yesterday, but I hadn't ordered anything.  The shipping label said "token" valued at "$18."  He's sent me some modern coins from his country, and I've sent him some dollar coins and $2 bills from the states off and on, and I figured this was that.  I went back to work and didn't even open it until later in the day.  When I opened it, you guessed it, it was the "o" mint that got away with a note saying the original buyer fell through, and he thought he'd just mail it for a surprise without emailing first.  The one that got away comes home!

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-77756

Offline Lucas H

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2012, 12:03:03 pm »
And, I reworked my Vespasian folder in my gallery.  I removed Greek legend dis, hemis, and tets.  I moved the countermarked coins.  I ordered the coins in chronological order.  My updated gallery of Vespasian is here:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3412


Offline David Atherton

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2012, 07:08:00 pm »
Lucas, after watching your 'o' mint story unfold over the last couple of months I'm very happy that you finally got it. A very enviable coin from a most interesting mint! It's not very often you get such a rarity in fine shape.

Offline Lucas H

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2012, 02:16:19 pm »
Quote
Lucas, after watching your 'o' mint story unfold over the last couple of months I'm very happy that you finally got it.

Very amazing.  Like my lost coin found:  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=74854.0.  I suppose I've used up all my luck on these at this point. 

Quote
A very enviable coin from a most interesting mint! It's not very often you get such a rarity in fine shape

I would take one of these in any shape so long as the "o" was still visible, and this one is nice.



Updated Titus and Domitian section of my gallery as well.  Separated them into two galleries, one each, and updated my descriptions and sorted by RIC numbers like Vespasian yesterday.  This helps me to better plot and prioritize what I want to get for my Flavian favorites.

Titushttps://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=4082

Domitianhttps://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3517

Offline Lucas H

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2012, 08:03:30 am »
Quote
I reworked my Vespasian folder in my gallery.

In so doing, I also correspondingly organized my collection, and realized a few of my acquisitions are not in my gallery.  This is one of my absolute favorite coins of Vespasian despite the condition of the legend, and I realized it was not there.  I tried to photograph this one on my own, but given it's toning, I couldn't get it good enough for my purposes, so I used the seller's photograph which I try not to do very often.

Vespasian RIC II 1558, Judaea Capta type from the Syrian mint of Antioch

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-77982

Offline Lucas H

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 06:57:44 am »
An upgraded Domitian as Caesar under VespasianRIC II V238.  The older one when to my newly crated duplicate gallery.  The new one is here:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78372




Offline Lucas H

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2012, 09:30:40 am »

Offline Lucas H

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2012, 08:11:25 am »
And a few more additions:

Titus/Elephant in decent shape for my collection:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78571

Titus/Venus, the earlier one before he took the title P P

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78572

Titus as Caesar/Eagle on Cippus.  Unlike many I have seen, the thunderbolt is visible in the eagle's claws:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78573

Finally, another Vespasian/seated pax:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78574

I have one, but I can't decide which I like better or why.  As this description shows, the obverse on this addition is nicer, but something about the reverse of the other is appealing as well.  If you have the time, which is better and why?  The existing one is here: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-71782

Offline David Atherton

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2012, 09:05:25 am »
All excellent additions.

In regards to the Vespasian Pax - I like your newest acquisition the best. The portrait is more artistically pleasing and the reverse is much better too.

Offline Lucas H

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2012, 09:57:44 am »
And now, for new additions, and not all Flavians at that

Decimus Junius Brutus, a cousin of Caesar who became instrumental in his assassination

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78579

My favorite of this batch! Octavian and Marcus Antonius.  I've wanted an Octavian for some time, and I found two triumvirs on one coin!

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78578

And an unusual coin.  Mule and Fourree.  I've had neither, and now both in 1!

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78577

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2012, 10:16:58 am »
Quote from: Lucas H on March 14, 2012, 09:57:44 am
And an unusual coin.  Mule and Fourree.  I've had neither, and now both in 1!

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78577


Lucas

That is a fantastic coin - 130 years difference between obverse and reverse. My record is over 200 years (I have a denarius dated 182 BC reverse paired with an obverse of Augustus about 15 BC) but I've never since then seen one over 100 years difference. A great find!

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2012, 01:43:36 pm »
Quote from: Lucas H on March 14, 2012, 09:57:44 am
And an unusual coin.  Mule and Fourree.  I've had neither, and now both in 1!

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78577


Lucas

That is a fantastic coin - 130 years difference between obverse and reverse. My record is over 200 years (I have a denarius dated 182 BC reverse paired with an obverse of Augustus about 15 BC) but I've never since then seen one over 100 years difference. A great find!

Andrew I think your math is a bit off... Unless we're looking at a different coin ;)  Obverse of Titus, reverse of Vespasian with only a few years difference.

Reverse is Vespasian from 70-71

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2012, 01:58:23 pm »
Quote from: Lucas H on March 14, 2012, 09:57:44 am
And an unusual coin.  Mule and Fourree.  I've had neither, and now both in 1!

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78577


Lucas

That is a fantastic coin - 130 years difference between obverse and reverse. My record is over 200 years (I have a denarius dated 182 BC reverse paired with an obverse of Augustus about 15 BC) but I've never since then seen one over 100 years difference. A great find!

Andrew I think your math is a bit off... Unless we're looking at a different coin ;)  Obverse of Titus, reverse of Vespasian with only a few years difference.

Reverse is Vespasian from 70-71


Oops my mistake.

Sori!

I thought we were looking at this reverse:



Basic sloppiness by me in not looking at the coin. :-[

Of course the reverses are almost exactly the same but the simpulum on Vespasian has a square bottom and on Julius Caesar has a round bottom, and PON.MAX rather than PONT.MAX. And the jug has a lip on one coin and not on the other. And the styles are different.

Sheeesshh I should go back to Coins school 101.

Offline benito

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2012, 02:08:10 pm »
One of those days....PONT MAX   TRI POT   ;D

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2012, 02:35:36 pm »
One of those days....PONT MAX   TRI POT   ;D

Here's my mule with the 200 year date range. Obv. Augustus. Rev. Dioscuri with gryphon under the horses.



Offline David Atherton

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2012, 04:54:45 pm »
Quote from: Lucas H on March 14, 2012, 09:57:44 am
And an unusual coin.  Mule and Fourree.  I've had neither, and now both in 1!

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78577


Lucas

That is a fantastic coin - 130 years difference between obverse and reverse. My record is over 200 years (I have a denarius dated 182 BC reverse paired with an obverse of Augustus about 15 BC) but I've never since then seen one over 100 years difference. A great find!

Andrew I think your math is a bit off... Unless we're looking at a different coin ;)  Obverse of Titus, reverse of Vespasian with only a few years difference.

Reverse is Vespasian from 70-71


Oops my mistake.

Sori!

I thought we were looking at this reverse:



Basic sloppiness by me in not looking at the coin. :-[

Of course the reverses are almost exactly the same but the simpulum on Vespasian has a square bottom and on Julius Caesar has a round bottom, and PON.MAX rather than PONT.MAX. And the jug has a lip on one coin and not on the other. And the styles are different.

Sheeesshh I should go back to Coins school 101.

Andrew, there is much more common ground between Republican and Flavian coins than a lot of folks think...come on over to the dark side;)

Offline Lucas H

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2012, 08:27:24 am »
One new Titus from early in his reign.  Thanks to David for spotting this one for me.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78877

Offline Lucas H

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Re: New Harsh Coins
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2012, 08:02:59 am »
Spring has sprung, so I sprang for a few new coins which have arrived:

1.  The iconic Vespasian Coin of the Judaea Capta type (an upgrade from the original, lower cost, version I got to begin with):
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-79168

2.  A left facing Titus/captives, the first I've seen of this type for sale.   
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-79169

3.  My favorite of this group, although not a Flavian, 12 Caesar, or even a denarius. (any advice on the description of this one is greatly appreciated as I lack the print books to refer to on this one- Andrew  ;D).

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-79171

 

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