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Author Topic: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)  (Read 1674 times)

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Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« on: December 08, 2021, 11:03:54 am »
Ten oto medalion Konstantyna II o wadze 2 solidów został kilka dni temu sprzedany na aukcji Aurea Numismatika za 950 000 CZK (~42 000 USD)



Tyle że wszystko wskazuje, że jest to kolejna wersja znanego fałszerstwa. Dotąd występowało ono w nieco lżejszej wersji 1 i 1/2 solida

Oto egzemplarz sprzedany dwukrotnie na aukcjach Raucha, ostatnio w 2012 roku za 32 000 euro



A to z kolei egzemplarz tego medalionu z "Fake Ancient Coin Reports"



Tak skomentowany przez Ilię Prokopowa

 
Quote
"The medallion is made by a comparatively new technology from an unknown studio. Bronze matrixes made from paraffin positives are cast. Then they are put in steel rings with long handles attached perpendicularly. This is done in order to not deform the bronze matrixes and also to work manually with them. On a solid base they put a metal lead and in it they put the obverse matrix then they put the reverse but with some space between so that the coin core can fit between them. The core already cast is being heated to a certain temperature and is placed between the two matrixes. Then with a big hammer it is hit and a coin or medallion is being struck.
Indications helping to recognize these:
1. If you have equipment for metal analyzing - the gold surface has many bronze traces.
2. The core edge is often additionally processed so some traces could be seen.
3. On the edge you can see knots left from the casting process of the core.
4. Traces of additional processing on images and inscriptions.
5. The matrix defects are result from its casting so they are transmitted to the struck surface. Similar defects are not typical for the genuine matrixes."

Pojawiła się także wersja w srebrze AG







Oraz wersja w brązie AE



Fałszerstwo jest z pewnością groźne, ale czy WSZYSTKIE prezentowane tutaj monety są falsami? Are all the coins shown here fakes?

Należy ostrzegać przed falsami, ale nie chciałbym jednocześnie z tym przesadzić.
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2021, 06:41:38 pm »
The pictures don't seem to be displaying correctly, but I was able to see the Aurea Numismatika coin from the auction archive.

The "2 solidi" and "1.5 solidi" dies seem identical. It would be interesting to know if the coin sizes are the same are not (Aurea don't give the size). I suspect it is just the same die used with a heaver flan, although it's possible they were able to "enlarge" the die.

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2021, 07:19:35 pm »
The pictures don't seem to be displaying correctly

Sorry, again strange technical problem. All is fine on preview and few minutes after. And then suddenly all pictures disappear.

Now pictures are loaded from another site so, please, take a look again.
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Offline DzikiZdeb

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2021, 04:01:39 am »
Co do ogólnej oryginalności to ciężko mi się wypowiedzieć - nie podoba mi się scena z rewersu ze względu na nadmierną trójwymiarowość. Sceny na rzymskich monetach mają to do siebie, że mają odzwierciedlać pewien dwuwymiarowy schemat, a nie oddawać 1:1 scenę tak jakby była widziana w rzeczywistości wraz z nachodzeniem na siebie obiektów/osób. Klasyczne deptanie po jeńcu wygląda przeważnie tak:


https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=617496

i podobnego schematu oczekiwał bym po wzmiankowanym medalionie. Ale to oczywiście tylko poszlaki, a nie żaden twardy argument przeciw oryginalności całej emisji.

Jeśli miałby istnieć oryginał, to powinien być wzorcem do egzemplarza Raucha/egzemplarza z Fake Coins. Trudno mi taki wskazać spośród pokazanych wyżej. Natomiast można by się zastanowić, czy nie można wśród nich zaproponować jakiejś kolejności wykonania, tzn. nie wygląda mi na to, żeby były to wyroby wykonane w jednym czasie. Bardziej prawdopodobne wydaje mi się, że najpierw były dwa złote (Rauch/Fake Coins), następnie mogły z nich zostać odlane dwa pierwsze srebra (wyraźnie chudsza postać dziewczyny przy pozostawionej charakterystycznej dziurze pod VM w CAESARVM). Egzemplarz czeski mógł powstać w innym czasie albo z któregoś z poprzednich złotych, albo z trzeciego srebrnego; tak czy inaczej nie wygląda na oryginalny chociażby ze względu na "echo" zarysu twarzy Konstantyna ciągnące się od nosa do szyi.

Dużo by pomogły zdjęcia rantów, ale zapewne żaden ze sprzedawców nie pokusił się o ich wykonanie.

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2021, 07:53:24 am »
The reverse composition does pretty accurately copy RIC 102 - the 1.5 solidi medallion for Delmatius (see RIC plate coin below).

Presumably the types does exist for all of Constans, Consantine II and Constantius II in addition to Delmatius. The same type (with slightly diferent reverse) also exists as a 1.5 scripulum gold fraction for Constans, and presumably that exists for all the caesars too.

It does seem logical that the gold ones would have been produced first.

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2021, 09:09:10 am »
Presumably the types does exist for all of Constans, Consantine II and Constantius II in addition to Delmatius.

Yes, it seems logical. But what about these seven Constantines II? Are they all fakes? I know that it is hard to decide from pictures alone and that is why I ask for help.
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Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2021, 09:13:09 am »
nie podoba mi się scena z rewersu ze względu na nadmierną trójwymiarowość.

Z tym akurat bywa różnie. Chyba jednak inaczej, w uproszczony i szybszy sposób, wykonywano masówkę, a inaczej pracowano nad złotymi medalionami, z których wiele ma wręcz walory "rzeźbiarskie".

Sceny na rzymskich monetach mają to do siebie, że mają odzwierciedlać pewien dwuwymiarowy schemat, a nie oddawać 1:1 scenę tak jakby była widziana w rzeczywistości wraz z nachodzeniem na siebie obiektów/osób. Klasyczne deptanie po jeńcu wygląda przeważnie tak:

Dużo by pomogły zdjęcia rantów, ale zapewne żaden ze sprzedawców nie pokusił się o ich wykonanie.

Najlepiej byłoby wziąć w rękę, w drugą rękę lupę etc. Ale mam tylko to, co widać.
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2021, 10:24:55 am »
Quote
But what about these seven Constantines II? Are they all fakes?

I assume so. Having the same dies used in three metals is obviously highly suspect. The gold is to be expected (at 1.5 solidi), but none of these look right.

The shared "die defects" are all very suspicious. (e.g. all the pitting in front of the bust, scratch on reverse right field, pit in front of V-M  on reverse).

I'm not even sure these are transfer dies - might be modern.

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2021, 11:50:09 am »
all very suspicious.

I agree that all these coins are very suspicious. I only want to eliminate the possibility that among them is a genuine specimen used as a prototype.
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2021, 07:49:39 am »
The summary of what Amentia wrote is:

1) He thinks the HD Rauch coin is genuine
2) The transfer die was created by Lipanoff from 1)
3) There are two generations of transfer
4) Maybe the bronze is genuine too

I thought Lipanoff were only in the business of using modern dies. Ilya Prokopov (who literally wrote the book on the Lipanoff studio), in his FORVM fake report, says the fake is from an unknown studio (and details the technology used).

My opinion is: I wish Barry Murphy was here.

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2021, 08:57:15 am »
My opinion is: I wish Barry Murphy was here.

Could you be less enigmatic?

Do you believe that Rauch specimen is real? How this real specimen with many marks of double strike could be simply transferred to make the fakes without these marks?
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2021, 09:05:24 am »
Quote
Could you be less enigmatic?

Do you believe that Rauch specimen is real?

I suspect not, but I'd trust Barry's opinion 100x more than my own!

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2021, 09:22:14 am »
but I'd trust Barry's opinion 100x more than my own!

So what is Barry's opinion or how we can get to know it?
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2021, 09:48:12 am »
He does still post here very occasionally, and slightly more often on CoinTalk.

You could try sending him a PM (bpmurphy).

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2021, 10:04:26 am »
You could try sending him a PM (bpmurphy).

Done.
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Offline Din X

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2021, 07:36:40 am »
"I thought Lipanoff were only in the business of using modern dies."

Lippanoff made modern hand cut dies, transfer die and recut transfer dies.
In fake reports is maybe 1 picture of a Lipanoff die I am aware of maybe there are a little bit more I have 50+ dies from Lipanoff in my collection and many silicon rubbers where he cut details and later made with them by electroplating dies to mint coins.
I own modern dies and fakes from Lipanoff, transfer dies and transfer die fakes from Lipanoff and recut transfer dies fakes from Lipanoff.
I got the dies and some fake from a guy who pretended that he was a "friend" of him.

There is actually another very famous Lipanoff transfer die forgery, Prokopov even had a picture of the TRANSFER DIES on cover of his book "Lipanoff Studio: Catalogue of all registered coin types" there are actually many more Lipanoff fakes not included in this book.

Picture 1 shows the transfer die
Picture 2 authentic
Picture 3 transfer die fake sold as such (hair is recut)



Offline Din X

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2021, 08:10:53 am »
More examples of transfer dies by Lipanoff, there the dotted border has been recut.

ANTONINUS PIUS
AR Denarius, 18/17 mm; 3,114 g; 6h.
Obv. ANTONINVS AVG PIVS PP TRP XII Laureate head of Antoninus to l.
Rev. TR POT COS II Simpulum, aspergillum, jug and lituus.
Struck. Die-engraver "Lipanoff Studio"
Published: Sofia 2004, no.55
I. Prokopov

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pid=5234


Picture 1 authentic look for example for the strange looking letter T on reverse at 12 o´ clock it is identical on the Lipanoff transfer die fakes no one would or could copy the whole design inluding such fine details so perfect by hand.
Picture 2 Lipanoff transfer die fake recut dots
Picture 3 Lipanoff transfer die fake recut dots published by Prokopov

I have this Lipanoff transfer die fake 2 times too, there is a line too at occiput of Antoninus Pius which can be only found in the transfer dies and on transfer die fakes. This line shows from the back of the head to the letter G of AVG.

Offline Din X

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2021, 08:13:44 am »
Another Lipanoff tranfer die, again the dots of dotted border have been recut and some typical transfer errors like damaged letters etc which are typical for Lipanoff fakes due to the production method of the dies (electroplating).

AR Denarius, 17/17 mm; 3,130 g; 6h.
Obv. IMP C M CLOD PVPIENVS AVG Laureate bust of Pupienus to r.
Rev. PAX PVBLICA Pax on chair to l., holding olive branch and scepter.
Struck. Die-engraver "Lipanoff Studio"
Published: Sofia 2004, no.109
I. Prokopov

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pid=5287

Picture 1 authentic
Picture 2 Lipanoff transfer die fake recut dots
Picture 3 Lipanoff transfer die fake recut dots published by Prokopov

I have this Lipanoff fake 2 times in my collection there are two lines in front of forehead of Balbinus so this fakes can be easyly recognized as such. This 2 lines can be only found on this transfer die fakes and must be so only in the transfer dies.

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2021, 08:26:23 am »
All very interesting, and I respect your expertise, but I only wish I had the skill to deduce which of any of these are original vs copies.

For the quadriga festaureus, is it only the Elsen coin you think is geniune (which they withdrew), or any of the others that have been sold ?

I have some saved pictures, below, of part of the Lipanoff "catalog" that they actually used to advertise on their web page a long time ago.

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2021, 08:27:45 am »
Only Elsen authentic ?

Offline Din X

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2021, 08:45:09 am »
No I only picked out one authentic one vs fake one.
If I post to many pictures it could become confusing, I have of course more pictures.
I fear that authentic ones could have been withdrawn too because some could think wrongly assume that they modern die fakes instead of transfer die fakes, because these fakes have been recognized as Lipanoff fakes and some could assume die match to Lipanoff fake would mean fake, too:(

There is more information about them from Lars Ramskold

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Die-link-chain-leading-to-RIC-Constantinopolis-1-A-C-Forgeries-from-the-Lipanoff_fig5_278128917

I have a transfer die fake made from a Lipanoff transfer die fake, too.
I would be of course happier to have an original Lipanoff transfer die fake and not a fake of a fake.


Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2021, 09:01:05 am »
Thanks, Din, for your informative posts but I still don't know why you believe that Rauch medallion (second picture in this thread) is authentic?
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Offline Din X

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2021, 09:55:15 am »
"Thanks, Din, for your informative posts but I still don't know why you believe that Rauch medallion (second picture in this thread) is authentic?"

To find same scratch on modern die fakes is actually not making sense, same scratch is only making sense for transfer die, cast and electrotype fakes.
The same scratch is enough for the condemnation of coins of the same type.
No one really no one would later intentionally melt metal and add this in shape of a line to the matrix, because this would mean that all coins minted with this die will have an idential line looking like a scratch and identical scratch is resulting in the condemnation of all this coins as fakes. To produce a modern die you only need metal blanks and some cutting tools, no melting of metal is necessary only later to produce planchets. So why would a forger wants that all fakes have an identical line that looks like a scratch if it is only bringing him disadvantages?

There are many good reasons and they have soemthing to do how modern hand cut dies and transfer dies are produced and typical problems of transfer die fakes.

1. We have a scratch in shape of a line on the reverse present on all of these fakes one some better visible as on others.
That scratches are copied from the mother is a typical problem of transfer die fakes, identical contact marks (scratches) is one of main reasons to condemn transfer die fakes of modern coin (Thalers, Morgan Dollars etc.) and it is used for condemnation of ancient coins, too.
Same scratch is an identical individual characteristic from circulation and it is pretty much impossible to a completely identical scratch on two coins from the same type and the more individual the scratch is and the more identical scratches we have on coins from the same type the lower the chance that both can be authentic.
And we have this rough areas on fake of Constantine too which can bee seen on all and I think that they are either an individual characteristic from circualtion or environment and sould so not be present on two coins of the same type.
Such problems like same scratches etc can not be found on original modern die fakes, except these fakes are fakes of fakes.

Now we have to know more about dies/matrixes.

The coin is positve  and the matrix is negative

If we cut something out of die/martrix this area will be later higher than the field.
If you make a scratch in shape of a line in the dies then this line will be later on the coin as a rised line which is higher than the fields.
If you want to have later a line on the coin that looks like a scratch and is lower than the field you would have to melt metal and add this melted metal in shape of a line to the matrix.
If you cut a detail out of the die this details will be later higher than the field on the coin, if you add details by adding metal to the die this details will be lower than the field of the coin.
You can buy round steel blanks where you cut out the details and which will be at the end the matrix.

Ok let´s think a forger cuts a die that would pretty much fool everyone and then he has different options:

1. He mints fakes and he will become rich
2. he is a good guy and marks them as replicas
3. he is completely stupid and  adds metal in sape of a line and he adds metal later visible on the coins as rough areas that this coins can be alter easily condemned by experts as transfer die fakes.

The coin itself looks convincing, too.



Offline Din X

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2021, 10:04:35 am »
To the ones with quadriga, I do not think that any of the Gold coins sold at auction is a Lipanoff fake except the one sold as Lipanoff fake.
My problem is for example that the hair seems to be recut on the fake sold as Lipanoff fake, in the matrixes I can not see if the hair is recut there or not but on my fake the hair is recut too.
The dotted border seems to be recut and to the distance of the right horse´s head to the dotted border is much huger on the Lipanoff fakes than on original authentic coins.
But it could be well possible that other forgers made transfer dies of this issue too so it is possible that some could be transfer die fakes made buy another forger, for this a die study would be necessary and best really good pictures or coins in hand.

Offline Din X

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2021, 10:10:08 am »

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2021, 11:52:25 am »
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Offline Din X

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2021, 12:05:57 pm »

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Konstantyn II, CONS, Gold medallion (are all these coins fakes?)
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2021, 12:27:07 pm »
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