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Author Topic: Ptolemy II tet, help with year/mint/control marks please  (Read 1261 times)

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Offline Lucas H

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Ptolemy II tet, help with year/mint/control marks please
« on: April 12, 2011, 11:45:32 am »
I've developed some understanding of the Latin legends, but the Greek is foreign to me.  I obtained this which was described by the seller as follows: "Joppa. Ptolemy II, AR tetradrachmPtolemy hd rt/Eagel, monogram of Joppa on l., Gaza below.  Possible joint issue.  cf BMC 142, cf. H-1098."

On the reverse, left of the eagle, top, I see "KTI."  Below on the left, I see IA (without bar in "A" and with line above, is that lamda? or the two together- gamma lamda?).  Right of the eagle, on the top, I see "AI" (again, without the bar on the "A" lamda?).  Below, theta? 

I really like this coin, and the historic significance of Ptolemy II is why I purchased it.  I have no reason to doubt the seller, but I want to understand what I'm looking at. 

Can anyone help me identify what these control marks mean?  Is any a date? 

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Ptolemy II tet, help with year/mint/control marks please
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 11:56:42 am »
Left field's monogram is not a KTI, is IOΠ, monogram for the Greek ΙΟΠΠΗ = JOPPA.

I don't know what's the the ΓΑ on left field, but it has been used sometimes as a mint monogram for the Greek ΓΑΖΑ = GAZA

I have no idea on what's the Θ on the right field.

I think the date on top right field is ΛΙ, so the regnal year is 37 = 249 BC.

The reverse legend reads ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΥ ΣΩΤΗΡΟΣ, the coin was issued under Ptolemy II Philadelphos, in the name of Ptolemy I, Soter

Best regards

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Ptolemy II tet, help with year/mint/control marks please
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2011, 12:15:25 pm »
Your coin is Svoronos 814, here is a similar one
http://www.acsearch.info/ext-record.html?id=447383

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Offline Lucas H

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Re: Ptolemy II tet, help with year/mint/control marks please
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2011, 12:26:59 pm »
Quote
Your coins is Svoronos 814, here is a similar one http://www.acsearch.info/ext-record.html?id=447383

Thanks.  That's it.  I did some digging around acsearch this mornign before posting, but didn't find this entry. 

Quote
I don't know what's the the ΓΑ on left field, but it has been used sometimes as a monogram for the Greek ΓΑΖΑ = GAZA
I'm still curious about the ΓΑ.  If the mintmark on these is typically the top left, then I've found others where that is the Gaza mintmark (http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=141885), so I don't know why it would be on this one, or what the typical mark in the lower left field is.  Any more help witht that bottom left monogram?  Anyone know what the  :Greek_Theta: in the lower right is for?

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Ptolemy II tet, help with year/mint/control marks please
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2011, 12:39:03 pm »
Of course the obverse features the head is the founder of the dynasty Ptolemy 1, which occurs almost on all Ptolemaic tetradrachms with generally cruder & cruder renditions as the Ptolemies go on. The only other portrait on tets I believe is on Ptolemy V1 ( of himself), tetrdrachms from Cyprus..rare and expensive.
On gold there are a range of Ptolamaic portraits and dynastic strikings.

The Ptolemaic tetradrachm was considerably lighter than the Attic standard weight of that time of c 17g and indeed got even lighter as time progressed in order, it is believed, to discourage the efflux of silver from Egyptian territories and to gain 2.5g of silver or so in exchange on an Attic standard tetradrachm.

The cistophoric tetradrachm started c 180 BC ( nobody quite knows), had its own weight standard of about 12.6 g, when the Attic standard of Alexander tetradrachms had reduced to around 16.8g.

Tricky stuff coins.
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline Lucas H

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Re: Ptolemy II tet, help with year/mint/control marks please
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2011, 12:45:32 pm »
Quote
the obverse features the head is the founder of the dynasty Ptolemy 1

Thanks for that.  Curious they would stick with the portrait of the founder, but the mint master must have been happy come regime change.  Something is tied around his neck, so is it properly described as "draped?"

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Ptolemy II tet, help with year/mint/control marks please
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2011, 12:47:55 pm »
Quote from: Lucas H on April 12, 2011, 12:45:32 pm
  Something is tied around his neck, so is it properly described as "draped?"

It is the Aegis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis

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Offline cicerokid

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Re: Ptolemy II tet, help with year/mint/control marks please
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2011, 01:08:00 pm »


ERRATA...I meant Ptolemy V not V1 for the Cyprus portrait AR tets.
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline Lucas H

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Re: Ptolemy II tet, help with year/mint/control marks please
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 07:28:23 am »
1.  What does
Quote
ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΥ ΣΩΤΗΡΟΣ
translate as?

2. 
Quote
ΓΑ on left field, but it has been used sometimes as a mint monogram for the Greek ΓΑΖΑ = GAZA
  Anyone know why this mintmark would be under the Joppa mint mark?  What is usually in this lower left spot on these types?

3. 
Quote
I have no idea on what's the Θ on the right field
.  Anyone else have an idea about this?

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Ptolemy II tet, help with year/mint/control marks please
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2011, 08:09:17 am »
Quote from: Lucas H on April 13, 2011, 07:28:23 am
1.  What does
Quote
ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΥ ΣΩΤΗΡΟΣ
translate as?

OF PTOLEMY SOTER (SAVIOUR)

Refers to Ptolemy I, establisher of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy_I_Soter



Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Ptolemy II tet, help with year/mint/control marks please
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2011, 09:54:42 pm »
Quote from: Lucas H on April 12, 2011, 12:45:32 pm
Quote
the obverse features the head is the founder of the dynasty Ptolemy 1

Thanks for that.  Curious they would stick with the portrait of the founder...


Any more curious than having this nation's founder (also in progressively cruder portraits) on a widely used coin type for 80 years?  We have had about the same # of regime changes just during in the life of the Washington quarter as the Ptolemaic empire had in 300 years.

PtolemAE

 

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