Ancient forgeries ?

[superflex]

This may be common knowledge to most on here but I can't seem to find any info on the web. Modern forgeries are documented, however, are ancient coin forgeries as easily identified as modern fakes. Are they even identifiable? I am sure it wouldn't be unfair to assume counterfeiting was present back in those times to.


Does anyone know of cases where such a scenario has arisen ?  Where it has, are these ancient forgeries still valuable coin ?

ADMIN NOTE: See Ancient Counterfeits and Fourree in NumisWiki and Counterfeits and Barbaric & Imitative in Forum's shop catalog (click on the blue text links).

[WelfIV]

Hi,

of course there were forgeries in ancient times, too.
For example coins originally made of silver were made of base metal und then silver plated.

Here you can see several examples of ancient forgeries:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3458

Regards,
Peter

[Andrew McCabe]

This may be common knowledge to most on here but I can't seem to find any info on the web. Modern forgeries are documented, however, are ancient coin forgeries as easily identified as modern fakes. Are they even identifiable? I am sure it wouldn't be unfair to assume counterfeiting was present back in those times to.

Does anyone know of cases where such a scenario has arisen ?  Where it has, are these ancient forgeries still valuable coin ?

Here are eight relevant websites

Of course counterfeiting in ancient times generally involved using less silver through plating or debasement, so these four sites address these types of counterfeits

Doug Smith's site on ancient plated coins:
http://dougsmith.ancients.info/fourree.html

My site on plated ancient Roman Republican coins:
http://andrewmccabe.ancients.info/Plated.html

Numiswiki (on Forvm) about base-metal (white metal) copies of silver denarii used in border or 'Limes" areas of the Roman Empire and thus called 'Limes Denarii"
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=limes%20denarius

Reid Goldsborough's site on plated ancient Greek coins:
http://counterfeitcoins.reidgold.com/fourrees.html

Another form of ancient counterfeiting was local production of crude style bronzes or silver, addressed in these four website:

Here is a site of the portable antiquity scheme that includes copies of Roman Imperial coin types:
http://finds.org.uk/romancoins/articles/page/contempcopies

Here are many photos of Roman Republican ancient counterfeits of this type, and my related webpage:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ahala_rome/sets/72157615125484937/detail
http://andrewmccabe.ancients.info/Provincial.html#Imitate

And here is Phil Davis' site on ancient good silver counterfeits of Roman Denarii:
http://rrimitations.ancients.info/

To answer your two questions

1. the ancient counterfeits are, usually, easy to identify, either because they are plated (which almost always breaks, showing the base core), or are made in poor quality metal, or are lightweight, or are of crude style, or a mix of several of these aspects

2. it's a matter of perception how valuable they are, compared to the coin they copy. Dacian good-silver imitations are typically worth as much as the coins they copy, whereas plated denarii or crude bronze copies are generally worth about half the coin they copy (but only if in excellent condition)

[superflex]

Thank you, very informative, Andrew appreciate all the links I will read up on this topic. I guess I have to watch out for dealers who promise 100% ancient authentic,  it may be ancient but also an authentic fake   

[Joe Sermarini]

Thank you, very informative, Andrew appreciate all the links I will read up on this topic. I guess I have to watch out for dealers who promise 100% ancient authentic,  it may be ancient but also an authentic fake   

Most dealer listings will correctly identify ancient counterfeits and imitatives.  When they don't, it is likely an error, not an attempt to be sneaky.

[Andrew McCabe]

Thank you, very informative, Andrew appreciate all the links I will read up on this topic. I guess I have to watch out for dealers who promise 100% ancient authentic,  it may be ancient but also an authentic fake  

Most dealer listings will correctly identify ancient counterfeits and imitatives.  When they don't, it is likely an error, not an attempt to be sneaky.

This is true. When they make an error it is usually because they don't notice a slightly barbarous or irregular style.

Ancient imitations are worth real money - if there is a price discount that is because they often don't look as nice or as well engraved, which is akin to condition. Well made imitations can sometimes be worth close to official coins in value.

So there is no incentive for dealer to conceal that they are imitations. And no real need for you to be concerned. If you buy one by accident, it is still an ancient coin.

[Lucas H]

Most dealer listings will correctly identify ancient counterfeits and imitatives.  When they don't, it is likely an error, not an attempt to be sneaky.

As others have advised above, respected dealers correctly list counterfeits and imitatives.  Andrew is correct that the style often gives them away.  

there is no incentive for dealer to conceal that they are imitations.

Andrew is also correct here.  Some, like me, try to collect ancient imitations within my collection area.  

Fouree:  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-80752
Imitation in good silver:  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-65829
Cast limes "denarius" in bronze:  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-80762

The eight websites listed by Andrew are an excellent starting point


And as one final note, it is hard for me to tell sometimes if something is an ancient forgery, but with the resources here, you can quickly get a consensus:  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=80951.0

[areich]

Opinions vary but for me an ancient counterfeit is just as authentic as any other ancient coin now that none of them are legal tender anymore. There are some very nice plated denarii available, in good condition, barely noticeable as plated except for the weight. If I could get a type I wanted in nice condition, plated, at a substantial discount compared to an official coin I would not hesitate to buy it. Some others would consider it worthless.

[TRPOT]

Opinions vary but for me an ancient counterfeit is just as authentic as any other ancient coin now that none of them are legal tender anymore. There are some very nice plated denarii available, in good condition, barely noticeable as plated except for the weight. If I could get a type I wanted in nice condition, plated, at a substantial discount compared to an official coin I would not hesitate to buy it. Some others would consider it worthless.

The main difference I see is that we know (for the most part) where and when the official coins were made. Ancient counterfeit coins are more like most other ancient artifacts on the market in the sense that you have no idea. A plated Roman denarius could have been made in Rome itself, or Gaul, or Syria... perhaps years after the original type was minted. You just don't know. They are more mysterious, and this bothers some people who like to collect things that they can check off a list and classify with reference numbers etc.

[quisquam]

The main difference as I see it is a different one: Official coins are official documents of the minting authority. For example the famous elephant denarius of Julius Caesar was minted at Caesar's instigation to pay his troops. An ancient forgery of the same type is just a copy, with no relation to Caesar and his reign at all.

That said I like my plated denarius very much, but it's a completely different thing and no substitute for 'the real thing'.

Stefan

[mwilson603]

OK, but think about this for a moment.  

We all love ancient coins for the history that they ooze, the rulers that they represent, and the thoughts that they invoke about the people that may have handled them, how they travelled across the empire, and how they eventually ended up with us looking after them.  

However, for officially made coinage, that whole journey starts in quite a boring way in a sanctioned mint.  Sure, the engravers and celators are often extremely skilled, and the work they produced are frequently miniature works of art.  But, with a few exceptions including where the stories of how the mint gained the silver to produce the coins for example, the actual "Bringing to life" of the coin is a fairly ordinary and mundane story.

Now consider for a moment the way that unofficial coinage came into this scene.  Forgers, having to work relatively secretly, would have to source the metals, create a heat source hot enough to forge metal, and have knowledge of how to silver plate base metal successfully in many instances.  Often, you will see with fourees, that they must have been engraved by copying official coins and not just thrown together from casts, so a skill at engraving would be required.  Once the forgers had acheived all of the aforementioned steps, they would need to find a way to introduce the coin into use to realise their profits.  Who laundered the cash?  Who did they dupe into taking forgeries as payment for something or other.  And remember, they would have to do all of this with the threat of death hanging over their heads if they were caught.

So in many ways, an ancient forgery can be seen as a far more exciting product, and whilst I don't want to overly romanticise what may well have been quite a nasty criminal affair, there is an element of skill and significant personal risk that should be associated with ancient forgeries.

So, and this is only my view, whilst it isn't an official coin as such, I really do not see why the value of such a thing should be significantly lower than it's official family member.

regards

Mark

[benito]

Only my opinion. The price should be higher. They are rarer.

[quisquam]

So in many ways, an ancient forgery can be seen as a far more exciting product

But this kind of exitement is independent from the type of coin: it doesn't matter if it's an EID MAR or a boring Roma/Dioscuri denarius. The forger just chose the type randomly and the risk was the same.

Stefan

[TRPOT]

OK, but think about this for a moment.  

We all love ancient coins for the history that they ooze, the rulers that they represent, and the thoughts that they invoke about the people that may have handled them, how they travelled across the empire, and how they eventually ended up with us looking after them.  

However, for officially made coinage, that whole journey starts in quite a boring way in a sanctioned mint.  Sure, the engravers and celators are often extremely skilled, and the work they produced are frequently miniature works of art.  But, with a few exceptions including where the stories of how the mint gained the silver to produce the coins for example, the actual "Bringing to life" of the coin is a fairly ordinary and mundane story.

Now consider for a moment the way that unofficial coinage came into this scene.  Forgers, having to work relatively secretly, would have to source the metals, create a heat source hot enough to forge metal, and have knowledge of how to silver plate base metal successfully in many instances.  Often, you will see with fourees, that they must have been engraved by copying official coins and not just thrown together from casts, so a skill at engraving would be required.  Once the forgers had acheived all of the aforementioned steps, they would need to find a way to introduce the coin into use to realise their profits.  Who laundered the cash?  Who did they dupe into taking forgeries as payment for something or other.  And remember, they would have to do all of this with the threat of death hanging over their heads if they were caught.

So in many ways, an ancient forgery can be seen as a far more exciting product, and whilst I don't want to overly romanticise what may well have been quite a nasty criminal affair, there is an element of skill and significant personal risk that should be associated with ancient forgeries.

So, and this is only my view, whilst it isn't an official coin as such, I really do not see why the value of such a thing should be significantly lower than it's official family member.

regards

Mark

You've nicely summed up many of the reasons I love the ancient counterfeits, but I try not to talk them up too much because I don't want more competition. 

[superflex]

I hope this isn't suppose to go in the identification thread, as i merely looking for a general response in relation to the above discussion. Is this coin an example of these ancient forgeries or is it a silver plated coin ? it seems to have some of the attributes mentioned above. How ironic to have found one in a new uncleaned lot 

Please explain how you reach your conclusion as it would be great to know how to spot the difference.

[areich]

It's both, actually. It's an ancient forgery made by plating a copper core with silver, the most common type of ancient forgery. The profit for the forger is the difference in value between a solid silver coin and one that is only partly silver.  It could theoretically (but it isn't) be a modern forgery of such an ancient forgery. These exist, but only for sought after types that will still fetch a very good price as plated examples. Many people don't know yet that this kind of forgery exists and will be less suspicious. Sold as an ancient forgery it also explains away style deviations. Of course experienced collectors can tell from both style and fabric.

This is a famous example that has made it into regular auctions / dealers' inventories more than once:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-6342

But your coin is definitely not modern.