Alexander fake?

[eduardo]

Hello,
Long time ago I got thos coin and truly I cant remember what I paid but since I was not after greek coins I believe it was not much.  In any case I have always suspected that it is fake.  Pretty but fake.  Could someone give me more details.

Thankyou in advance

Eduardo

[ember]

Hi,

I believe you're right on both counts.  It is pretty, but fake.  None of the eagle coins in Price look anything like that.

Darcy 

[Federico M]

Hi,

I agree: the coin looks very suspicious (maybe cast?). I don't know this reverse type, but waiting for someone more expert, it could be useful to have the weight (and diam.) of the coin (I'm not completely sure it is pure silver, but I may be wrong because of a peculiar toning).

Regards,
Federico

[eduardo]

Thank you Darcy and Federico.

The weight is 26.4gr. and the diameter 30mm.  Yes Federico, there is a yelowish tone that is funny.  Something else. The name ends in a Sigma and not in a Y.

Best regards

Eduardo

[slokind]

I'd love to learn that this is modern, documented, and made for some purpose.  Somehow I find it enchanting.  The head, especially the lion's scalp, is so slick, and the reverse manages to be both utterly silly looking and rather elegant.
It may be out of place among our coins, but it would be great on the Antiques Roadshow.  Pat Lawrence

[AlexB]

Hi

Thats gorgeous if it were real. Unfortunately whereby cannot say it cast or not for sure I would lean in that direction.... Its what you could call a 'fantasy piece'.

As per Darcy, never seen a reverse like that  - it seems made up of various components of known coin reverses.

Either way it is executed well.

Alex

[eduardo]

Thanks Alex and Pat.
Yes the piece is enchanting. Why would someone invent something like this? Who knows, maybe Don Brown or Umberto Eco could come out with a god novel based on this piece.  A pitty it is a fake.
Eduardo

[Federico M]

Something else. The name ends in a Sigma and not in a Y.

Actually, this is not strictly speaking a mistake: the "celator" decided to use simply the name Alexandros instead of the Greek genitive form in OY ("of Alexander")... but you are right: I think it's more frequent to find the genitive form on coins of this period (or maybe this is the only one used on coins of Alexander: I don't know).

Regards,
Federico

[eduardo]

Thanks Federico,
You enrich my knowledge.  I know very little about greek coins. After dedicating many years to do research in early South American coins, mainly Lima and Potosí, now I am in Roman coins and am having fun.  Here I send another greek coin I have. Don't know how common or good it is. I got it in Lima for a fasre price and I liked it.  Is from Massalia 2.4gr. 14.5mm.
saludos

Eduardo

[Federico M]

It's a pleasure if I can help, and this time I think we are both quite lucky because I have an interesting reference about coins of Massalia (Depeyrot, 1999) and I'm also looking for a few images to use in this web site (well, for the moment is only a project of web site...):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/federico/celtic/

Your coin has the weight of a light drachm (called also tetrobol, that is probably the more correct denomination) of Massalia of the late period (end of the 2nd century B.C. or beginning of the 1st), but the style is a bit too crude for an official emission and the lion on the reverse really looks like a wolf. The use of more "european" animals on the reverse is typical of Celtic imitatives of these coins: for some issues from Northern Italy the lion became a scorpion!
I'm not sure, but your "wolf" reverse may be an imitative of some Celtic tribe of the Danube region or of some other tribes of different areas, but I'm still looking for a good reference about these coins.

I would be glad if you could send me (federico.muras[at]tiscali.it) an high resolution (up to 1200 dpi, if you have a scanner) image and allow me to use it in my web page in the future. In any case, I'll try to say you more about this coin when I'll found the main reference about these imitatives in Northern Italy (it's a quite rare book of Pautasso... I found one copy of the original edition of the 70s at 250€ and I think that soon or later I'll buy it...)

Saluti,
Federico

PS
As I said, I still have to study a lot about these coins... in any case, the obverse of the coins represents Artemis (or Proserpina or other similar deities, following some interpretations) and on the reverse there is usually "M A    A" above a lion (wolf) going to right. There are quite a lot of possible different combinations of letters in exergue (and even more possibilities if the coin is an imitative, including no letters at all)... on official issues of Massalia there are many different letters or monograms both in obverse and reverse fields... [There are also blundered legends or legends in non Greek alphabets, but in this case, I think that the orignal legend was simply "Massa"]

[eduardo]

Caro Fedederico,

I am so glad you got some new information from my "lupo".  As you have seen, my web page is also in Italy (Bari)  this is thanks to a wonderfull Apulian friend.
[DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
What you say about my coin is wonderfull.  I am from keltic origen (Belgian from Liege grandfather) and love galic coins but of course they are so expensive and rare ( rarer over here) that there is no way to collect them. I can find out about the scaner and hight resolution but propose something better.  I have a friend who is going to Italy before the end of next month.  I will send the coin with him, you study it all you want, make all the pictures and publications you wish and then send it back to him near lake Como. Or maybe decide to bring it back yuourself.

I don't know anything about Galic coins but was in Tongeren (Tongres) two years ago and saw beauties.  Ciao. Eduardo

[Federico M]

Caro Eduardo,

I thank you very very much for your proposal and your trust, but I prefer not to risk losing in the mail a coin that is not mine. Besides, I'm not sure I would be able to say many more things with the coin in hand, for the moment (for instance, I'm not yet expert enough to confidently assess authenticity). [There is also a technical problem -but this one could have been solved- at the moment I'm not in Italy, but studing in France, in Toulouse...]

In any case, I can assure you that it will be a pleasure to study a bit more your coin "in theory", as soon as I'll have the appropriate references: I just have to wait until the end of june, since this is the last month of my Master in economics and I have not that much free time at the moment

Ciao e grazie!
Federico

PS
In this old post you can see some different (but quite similar, especially for the obverse) imitatives of Massalia coins:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=8620.0

[eduardo]

Ciao Federico,

I can see a leg of an M  and then the last Sigma and A and maybe the first Sigma.  I wonder if better resolution would help.  We´ll try anyhow.  But you can have the coin whenever you need it to check.  I have done it before and believe it is the best way.  I have a MALAKA coin from Spain that has been twice in Spain already back and forth.  As a historian I go first for the research than for the collection.

OK now put all your effort in the Master in Economics. I am also an economist.  Good luck.

Eduardo
PS.  If you prefer you can write to me in Italian or French.  No problem to read but dare to write them.

[Federico M]

Ciao Eduardo,

Just a few updates before coming back to my books...
I just found a specimen of quite similar style on CoinArchives:
[DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
This one is attributed to the Ligures of Gallia Cisalpina (in other words, this coin could have been minted in a radius of less than 100 km from my home! ).

Saluti,
Federico

PS
You can find other similar specimens from other Celtic tribes of Northern Italy in this site:
[DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
In particular: [DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

[eduardo]

Hello  Federico,

My son has already scaned the two sides in 1200 resolution and put in TIP, PIT or something like that.  I don't have the capacity to send them from here so send me a mail to dargenteduardo@hotmail.com  with your personal mail where that heavy material could be send.  If necesary we can put them in a disc and send the disc by mail.

Yes, the wolf is very similar (but mine is pretier).

A dopo

Eduardo

[siranthonyac]

Hi,

Unusual coin... my gut would be a fake, due to the fact that I've never seen anything like it, however... I agree with others who said, why would a forger create something that doesn’t exist?

In real life, does the coin look as yellowish as in the photo or is it more silverish?

Alexandros... is how Alexander would be written in Spanish, could this possibly be an ancient Hispanic version by a Moneyer in Spain?

It's almost a combination of a Ptolemy inspired Eagle and an Alexander III coin.

This coin has me very curious. If real, it is very sweet, if it's a fake, it's a rather good looking fake.

[Federico M]

Alexandros... is how Alexander would be written in Spanish, could this possibly be an ancient Hispanic version by a Moneyer in Spain?

I don't think this legend is so puzzling (especially on a fantasy coin, probably not created to deceive)... Alexandros is simply the Greek nominative case form of the name: it is not so strange to find the nominative form on coins (even if it is more common to find the genitive one on Alexander's coin). -os (-O ) for nominative (Alexander = Alexandros), -ou (-O Y) for genitive (Alexander's = Alexandrou).