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Author Topic: Roman scalpel  (Read 6192 times)

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Offline J. B.

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Roman scalpel
« on: May 31, 2012, 02:28:19 pm »
I've bought it last year as "knife or ceremonial object" but I've found exactly just looking scalpels on the internet.

http://www.hsl.virginia.edu/historical/artifacts/roman_surgical/assets/Scalpels.jpg

It's incredibly preserved. I hope it isn't fake. What do you think?

Thanks.

(Photos aren't mine but dealer's.)

Offline wileyc

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Re: Roman scalpel
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2012, 02:01:56 am »
 :Tao-Rho:    I have a casual interest in medical instruments (my profession) and have collected a few. I am not a expert on ancient instruments. I have never seen a similar scalpel attributed to the roman era. Typically scalpels are smaller to minimize associated tissue trauma. Occasionally you see them as smaller blades attached to a longer stem to allow for easier entry into a body cavity. I would be hesitent in my assessment. I looked at the link you provided, interesting. I did not see a link with attribution.

cordially

cw

gavignano

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Re: Roman scalpel
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2012, 06:45:40 pm »
I'm not an expert on ancient medical instruments either but I share his concern. Almost every one I've ever seen had a much smaller diameter blade. I've never seen one with the more ornate x design in the middle either. It looks a little fancy for a Roman era scapel. I would be tempted to say it is later, or, is some type of ceremonial object (animal sacrifice?). One other thought - food preparation knife.

Offline J. B.

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Re: Roman scalpel
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2012, 10:58:44 am »
I don't know, I primary collect ancient coins these artefacts aren't my main interest but I think knifes/scalpels shown in link look very similar. There are only few photos on internet so it's hard to get some information.

http://www.bridgemanart.com/asset/125890/Surgical-instruments-from-Pompeii-Roman-metal?search_context=%7B%22url%22%3A%22%5C%2Fsearch%5C%2Fcategory%5C%2FMedical-Equipment-and-Instruments%5C%2F1427%22%2C%22num_results%22%3A%22142%22%2C%22search_type%22%3A%22category_assets%22%2C%22category_id%22%3A%221427%22%2C%22item_index%22%3A26%7D

(or knife in this picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Physicianofrome.jpg)

My knife is 9,5 cm long, blade is 3,7 cm long and 1,5 cm wide.

Offline SC

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Re: Roman scalpel
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2012, 10:50:02 am »
Many, many items sold as Roman medical instruments are not.  They are for cosmetics, food preparation, etc.  That does not make them any less genuine or interesting.  Some dealers just seem to like the label either through ignorance or hoping it is more valuable that way.

It is awfully hard to tell if an item is genuine from a photo.  But looking at yours there appears to be very hard green encrustations on the lower part of the blade.  If this is true this is usually a good sign as these are quite hard to fake.  Much harder than the fake dirt and fake patina colour often applied to items.

Shawn
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline J. B.

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Re: Roman scalpel
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2012, 02:19:54 pm »
Thank you very much for your opinion.

Knife wasn't sold as scalpel that was only my speculation. It was sold as "knife or ceremonial object".

You are right because scalpels which I've seen on internet have iron blade which is always rusted. My knife has bronze blade which would had been too edgeless to medical use. I suppose.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Roman scalpel
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2012, 02:25:39 pm »
To me, it looks like a sculptor or artist's knife.

Offline Viminacium

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Re: Roman scalpel
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2012, 04:16:29 am »
Not everything with patina is Roman. This knife is suspicious to me. Its from new era or it is fake.

Offline benito

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Re: Roman scalpel
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2012, 05:53:46 am »
I think viminacium is right .BTW,encrustations can and are faked.Take a patinated and encrusted slug ( or more if necessary). Scrape. Glue the results of the scraping on the object ( can be a coin ) to be treated. Prof. Prokopov analyzes the technique in one of his books.

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Roman scalpel
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2012, 06:04:13 am »
I can't help but notice that the blades on the "scalpels" in the posted links appear to be iron (rusted), attached to bronze handles. Iron takes and holds an edge far better than bronze and thus this arrangement is logical. Your knife is all bronze. Implication: it is unlikely to be a genuine Roman scalpel if those posted in the links are authentic. That said I know nothing of these items. I am just going of what is posted in the supporting website links and noting the most fundamental of  differences to the item you have posted.

Offline Viminacium

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Re: Roman scalpel
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2012, 06:27:06 am »
Actually,i think blades are made from steel. And i agree with benito about patina. Here,in my country, some dealers colect roman bronze with patina and use same patina to make fakes more authentic.

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Roman scalpel
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2012, 07:01:45 am »
Quote from: Viminacium on June 17, 2012, 06:27:06 am
Actually,i think blades are made from steel.

You may well be correct. But I cannot tell that from a photo which shows rust indicative of the presence of Fe (as in Iron the element and iron the metal and steel the Carbon Fe alloy). Rust is indicative of iron not bronze and that is my point/observation on the blade of what are presented as authentic items. Differentiation of Iron from Steel requires a bit more than a photo of of a rusty blade. Both iron and steel were produced in the Iron Age; steel sometimes deliberately, sometimes by happenstance but more deliberately than not in the late Iron Age.

Offline SC

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Re: Roman scalpel
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2012, 08:12:55 am »
I should have used my terms better.  Yes encrustations can and are faked.  Anything can be glued on from sand and dirt to genuine ancient material taken from another item.

What is almost impossible to fake are the hard crystallized encrsutations such as malachite and others elements that build up onto the structure over the centuries.  You can glue, bond, weld, etc but you can't re-create genuine crystallized adhesions.  Of course you need a microscope to be able to see that they are genuine.

As I said, you can't tell from a photo.

Shawn
 
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

 

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