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Author Topic: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?  (Read 5760 times)

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Offline PtolemAE

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Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« on: March 27, 2014, 05:13:44 pm »
Lots of hats and helmets find their way onto Greek coins as main design elements or worn by a design figure - pileus, phrygian cap, corinthian helmet, etc.  Curious about what distinguishes between two of the slightly obscure types of hats - the 'kausia' and the 'petasos'.  How does one tell a 'kausia' apart from a 'petasos' ?  Are they actually just the same thing with two names?  Is a 'petasos' just a 'kausia' with tie-strings that tie under the chin?  Or does a 'petasos' stand up a bit above the head on a rim?

Coin pix with clearly identifiable examples of the 'kausia' and 'petasos' would be helpful. 

Thank you,

PtolemAE

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2014, 11:21:46 am »
Think of a petasos as a large brimmed sunhat.  Brim might be a little floppy like a straw sunhat.  Origin is in Thessaly.

A Kausia has less of a brim but  looks a bit like a flattened cone. So it's a harder firmer hat with a less distinct brim because of the conical shape.  Origin is Macedonia.  Photos below.

Petasos first.  Kausia second.

Offline Bill W4

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2014, 01:38:20 pm »
Would this be an example of a petasus?  I've had it for quite awhile and always wondered about the hat.  Coin is badly worn so pictures are lacking, sorry.  It's 16mm and 3.7gm
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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2014, 02:09:47 pm »
What's on the reverse of that coin?

The obverse is so worn, I'm not willing to say it's a hat.  Could be Apollo.

Offline Bill W4

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2014, 03:07:23 pm »
I'm afraid I have no idea.  The coin is almost worn smooth.  It's been in my "wonder what that could be"  pile for quite a while
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Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2014, 05:15:16 pm »
Think of a petasos as a large brimmed sunhat.  Brim might be a little floppy like a straw sunhat.  Origin is in Thessaly.

A Kausia has less of a brim but  looks a bit like a flattened cone. So it's a harder firmer hat with a less distinct brim because of the conical shape.  Origin is Macedonia.  Photos below.

Petasos first.  Kausia second.

The first image looks like a bit like a flattened sombrero or maybe a straw boater :)

In coin images I've seen, a number of Baktrian silver coins have easily identifiable kausia hats on emperor portraits.  Sort of like a beret, soft but with a crease separating the top and bottom at the brim.

Petasos, otoh, seems to be a type of stiff helmet rather than a hat.  Sort of a World War I 'doughboy' helmet - sitting atop the head with something of a brim.  We see those on images of Ainos silver coins of the 4th C. BC. with the facing portrait of Ainos.

The subject came up because of some 'hat' symbols found on a few rare Ptolemaic bronze coins (e.g. Sv 1696) - some so rare they aren't in any books or major online or published museum collections and known from as few as two specimens.  We see a little 'hat' control symbol on them, not a big image of a hat worn by the main portrait figure like the Baktrian coins with kausia.  It's fairly small and not always so clear.  I think now, though Svoronos described some as 'petasos', that he must have been mistaken and we are seeing the kausia 'hat' on all of the types that show a 'hat' symbol.  And that makes sense because the kausia is a Macedonian type of hat, the Ptolemies from time to time expressing their Macedonian origins with this symbol. 

Thanks for your input and the images.

PtolemAE

Offline n.igma

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2014, 09:34:45 pm »
Some people assert that ... The Macedonian kausia was originally identical with a cap often called a chitrali still worn today by men in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Nuristan. No kausia is mentioned in Greek literature before 325/24 B. C. No depiction of the cap can be securely dated earlier than that time. The kausia came to the Mediterranean as a campaign hat worn by Alexander and veterans of his campaigns in India.

So which came first, the Afghan/Bactrian chitrali or the Macedonian kausia?

An interesting topic of discussion in which I favour the former over the latter, but the evidence is perhaps equivocal.  

For the best discussion of the Kausia... Alexander's "Kausia" and Macedonian Tradition
 by Bonnie Kingsley
 in Classical Antiquity, Vol. 10, No. 1 (Apr., 1991), pp. 59-76 Published by: University of California Press
.  Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25010941

Perhaps the best known depiction of a Kausia on a coin, that of the Baktrian king Antimachos I...   https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-67452

The petasos on the other hand has a long and well attested history (last image below from Thessaly 400-344 BC) pre-dating the Macedonian conquest of Baktria-Sogdiana.  The petasos is clearly a broad brimmed hat secured by ties beneath the back of the head/upper neck or beneath the chin and associated with travel (i.e. a sun hat most probably made of woven plant fibre/straw) and thus associated with the god of travel Hermes. Interestingly in this respect, the Persians described the invading Macedonians as wearing shields on their heads. This is most certainly a reference to the petasos which made with woven straw, or even wicker would have resembled circular Persian shields which were exclusively made of wicker work.

Like the Kausia the Petasos is also to be found on the Baktrian coins, particularly on the bronzes of Diodotos II where it is worn by Hermes (second last image below). In this case the Petasos was undoubtedly brought to Baktria by the Greeks, whereas the Kausia possibly (if not probably) went the other direction!
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline n.igma

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2014, 03:24:46 am »
Continuing from previous post...

.... Finally another image of the Petasos pre-dating the Macedonian invasion of Baktria, one which makes the difference between it and the Kausia very apparent. Yet you will often find the petasos incorrectly described as a kausia on many Greek and Macedonian issues pre-dating Alexander III. In such cases, close examination of the iconography usually reveals the error of the attributor's nomenclature.

It is interesting that the petasos (eventually to be embellished with wings) carried over into Roman times, as did Hermes who evolved into Mercury.  

Yet the kausia disappeared from Macedonian iconography within a couple of centuries of Alexander III, having only made its appearance in the immediate aftermath of his invasion of the Persian east. Unlike the petasos, the kausia did not make the transition into the Roman iconographic pantheon. But  for its ongoing use to this day Afghanistan/Baktria we would hardly be the wiser for it. I think these facts say more about the origins of the kausia in the Baktrian/Afghan chitrali than any other aspect.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2014, 03:12:58 am »
Continuing from previous post...

.... Finally another image of the Petasos pre-dating the Macedonian invasion of Baktria, one which makes the difference between it and the Kausia very apparent. Yet you will often find the petasos incorrectly described as a kausia on many Greek and Macedonian issues pre-dating Alexander III. In such cases, close examination of the iconography usually reveals the error of the attributor's nomenclature.

It is interesting that the petasos (eventually to be embellished with wings) carried over into Roman times, as did Hermes who evolved into Mercury.  

Yet the kausia disappeared from Macedonian iconography within a couple of centuries of Alexander III, having only made its appearance in the immediate aftermath of his invasion of the Persian east. Unlike the petasos, the kausia did not make the transition into the Roman iconographic pantheon. But  for its ongoing use to this day Afghanistan/Baktria we would hardly be the wiser for it. I think these facts say more about the origins of the kausia in the Baktrian/Afghan chitrali than any other aspect.

Here's a pic of a Ptolemaic late bronze coin (Svoronos 1696, ca 30mm, ca 15gm) which was described by Svoronos as depicting a 'petasos' in the left field next to the eagles.  Not perfect but this is a decent specimen for the type.  Later period Ptolemaic bronzes declined in their manufactured quality

Based on this discussion and some other comments it seems it may well be instead a kausia.  There are smaller relatives of this coin type (not catalogued in Svoronos) with the same little 'figure' that seems to be the kausia.  Cox 119 has one eagle (24mm, 8gm) and there's a small 2-3 gram variety as well.  The 'hat' looks the same on all three sizes.

One thought was that the kausia was a symbol of the Ptolemies' Macedonian heritage but there are some other coins that clearly depict a Corinthian helmet so other ideas for this 'hat' can't be excluded so...

have a look see and report back your thoughts.

Thank you -

PtolemAE

Offline n.igma

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2014, 09:34:16 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on April 01, 2014, 03:12:58 am

Here's a pic of a Ptolemaic late bronze coin (Svoronos 1696, ca 30mm, ca 15gm) which was described by Svoronos as depicting a 'petasos' in the left field next to the eagles.  Not perfect but this is a decent specimen for the type.  Later period Ptolemaic bronzes declined in their manufactured quality.  

Based on this discussion and some other comments it seems it may well be instead a kausia.  There are smaller relatives of this coin type (not catalogued in Svoronos) with the same little 'figure' that seems to be the kausia.  Cox 119 has one eagle (24mm, 8gm) and there's a small 2-3 gram variety as well.  The 'hat' looks the same on all three sizes.

One thought was that the kausia was a symbol of the Ptolemies' Macedonian heritage but there are some other coins that clearly depict a Corinthian helmet so other ideas for this 'hat' can't be excluded so...


With such a small engraved image there must be considerable uncertainty attached to the specific form of headdress (if it is a hat at all). However, I am in the same camp as Svoronos and would describe it as a probable petasos, rather than a kausia.  

The key aspects in this determination are the apparent dimple on the top of the hat characteristic of many depictions of the petasos, but not the kausia, plus the presence of narrow protuberances beneath the base of the hat which appear to be an attempt to depict the fastenings or ties for the petasos.

As for the kausia being a symbol of Macedonian heritage, I think that for the reasons outlined by Kingsley this is one of the great myths of numismatic interpretation. The written record states clearly that only the Athenians, for a very narrow period of time, regarded the kausia as indicative of Macedonian origin, only by virtue of the fact that this type of hat was  worn by Macedonian veterans garrisoning the city at times during the wars of Diodochi in the thirty years following the death of Alexander the Great.  These Macedonian veterans of course returned from the anabasis wearing the kausia as a unique badge of identity associated with their campaign in Bactria and the Indus Valley. Within a generation the characterisation and for the most part the hat itself disappeared from the Greek historical record.

In the case of the coin of Antimachos I bearing the kausia the same erroneous argument is often run that this signifies his Macedonian heritage. However, consider the fact that until the time of Eukratides I (contemporaneous with Antimachos I) all Baktrian kings, bar one, were portrayed on coinage without headdress, but for the royal diadem. The exception was of course Demetrios I, who is portrayed wearing the elephant skin headdress signifying his conquest of the regions south of the Hindu Kush (India as it was then called).  With the early success of Eukratides I, he moved from the conventional portrayal (sans hat or helmet) to one bearing the adorned Boeotian helmet of the cavalry commander, symbolic of military success. At this stage Antimachos appears on the scene, the last of the Euthydemid line confronting Eukratides in the domain of Arachosia and the Paropamisadai, south of the Hindu Kush.  It is in the region that the chitrali was inferred to have originated, derived from an ancient headdress. Any wonder that in opposing Eukratides I, Antimachos sought to align himself with the local populace rather than the Macedonian conquerer wearing the headers of military command and conquest? Identification with the conquering and warring Macedonians is the last thing a local ruler would want under the circumstances that prevailed at the time.

Therefore I posit, contrary to popular numismatic myth, that the kausia worn by Antimachos is most likely an attempt to emphasise his local affiliations and sympathies, as a ruler of parts of Arachosia and the Paropamisadai, in contrast to that of the usurper Eukratides who is portrayed on his later coinage wearing the Boeotian cavalry helmet, typical of the Macedonian conquerers of Baktria.  A sign of Macedonian heritage the kausia most certainly is not!
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2014, 02:51:28 am »
Quote from: PtolemAE on April 01, 2014, 03:12:58 am

Here's a pic of a Ptolemaic late bronze coin (Svoronos 1696, ca 30mm, ca 15gm) which was described by Svoronos as depicting a 'petasos' in the left field next to the eagles.  Not perfect but this is a decent specimen for the type.  Later period Ptolemaic bronzes declined in their manufactured quality.  

Based on this discussion and some other comments it seems it may well be instead a kausia.  There are smaller relatives of this coin type (not catalogued in Svoronos) with the same little 'figure' that seems to be the kausia.  Cox 119 has one eagle (24mm, 8gm) and there's a small 2-3 gram variety as well.  The 'hat' looks the same on all three sizes.

One thought was that the kausia was a symbol of the Ptolemies' Macedonian heritage but there are some other coins that clearly depict a Corinthian helmet so other ideas for this 'hat' can't be excluded so...


With such a small engraved image there must be considerable uncertainty attached to the specific form of headdress (if it is a hat at all). However, I am in the same camp as Svoronos and would describe it as a probable petasos, rather than a kausia.  

The key aspects in this determination are the apparent dimple on the top of the hat characteristic of many depictions of the petasos, but not the kausia, plus the presence of narrow protuberances beneath the base of the hat which appear to be an attempt to depict the fastenings or ties for the petasos.

As for the kausia being a symbol of Macedonian heritage, I think that for the reasons outlined by Kingsley this is one of the great myths of numismatic interpretation. The written record states clearly that only the Athenians, for a very narrow period of time, regarded the kausia as indicative of Macedonian origin, only by virtue of the fact that this type of hat was  worn by Macedonian veterans garrisoning the city at times during the wars of Diodochi in the thirty years following the death of Alexander the Great.  These Macedonian veterans of course returned from the anabasis wearing the kausia as a unique badge of identity associated with their campaign in Bactria and the Indus Valley. Within a generation the characterisation and for the most part the hat itself disappeared from the Greek historical record.

In the case of the coin of Antimachos I bearing the kausia the same erroneous argument is often run that this signifies his Macedonian heritage. However, consider the fact that until the time of Eukratides I (contemporaneous with Antimachos I) all Baktrian kings, bar one, were portrayed on coinage without headdress, but for the royal diadem. The exception was of course Demetrios I, who is portrayed wearing the elephant skin headdress signifying his conquest of the regions south of the Hindu Kush (India as it was then called).  With the early success of Eukratides I, he moved from the conventional portrayal (sans hat or helmet) to one bearing the adorned Boeotian helmet of the cavalry commander, symbolic of military success. At this stage Antimachos appears on the scene, the last of the Euthydemid line confronting Eukratides in the domain of Arachosia and the Paropamisadai, south of the Hindu Kush.  It is in the region that the chitrali was inferred to have originated, derived from an ancient headdress. Any wonder that in opposing Eukratides I, Antimachos sought to align himself with the local populace rather than the Macedonian conquerer wearing the headers of military command and conquest? Identification with the conquering and warring Macedonians is the last thing a local ruler would want under the circumstances that prevailed at the time.

Therefore I posit, contrary to popular numismatic myth, that the kausia worn by Antimachos is most likely an attempt to emphasise his local affiliations and sympathies, as a ruler of parts of Arachosia and the Paropamisadai, in contrast to that of the usurper Eukratides who is portrayed on his later coinage wearing the Boeotian cavalry helmet, typical of the Macedonian conquerers of Baktria.  A sign of Macedonian heritage the kausia most certainly is not!


Thank you very much for the extended references and thoughts on this enigma.  Very helpful in relation to this interesting question. 

Here is the 2nd size of the same type of coin, uncatalogued by Svoronos, but clearly with the same 'hat' symbol.  This size is smaller, about 24 mm and 8gm.  It was listed by Cox (# 119).  Again a somewhat crude and weakly struck coin - the softness doesn't appear to be wear.  Maybe a little clearer that the first one, albeit smaller overall. 

There are a few more images to gather and I'll add them to future posts in this thread.  One coin just turned up and it is so peculiar that it started this discussion.  It has the 'hat' underneath a club we usually think of as the mint mark of Tyre and someone said it was a kausia.  That coin is definitely not so hot (condition) but it happens to be one of only two known specimens (with the hat under the club) and therefore so strange that some research on its symbolic imagery is worth pursuing.  That one is also uncatalogued anywhere.

Your discussion lends support to the notion it could easily be a petasos, Macedonian imagery possibly being irrelevant to the whole situation - as it must be for the coins that clearly depict the Corinthian helmet (Svoronos 1634 and 1635) and one type that has the caps of the dioscuri (also with a club - Svoronos 1320).

PtolemAE

Offline n.igma

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2014, 06:17:19 am »
This one might more readily be described as a kausia than a petasos, but for the fact that the profile appears too high for the conventional portrayal of a kausia.  This could be the result of artistic licence, or difficulty of engraving on a confined scale or alternatively it may represent some other type of hat.  The part of the hat beneath the rim might well be the rim roll of a kausia, but again this interpretation is complicated by the fact that a tie or strap appears to extend from this feature and such is not to be found on the kausia. If weight is placed in the interpretation of a strap or tie in the portrayal then it would in all likelihood be a variation of a petasos. Alternatively, the hat might be an attempt to portray a Greek pilos, or pileus. If a kausia it might represent the control symbol associated with a descendent of a Macedonian veteran employed as a mint official?  I certainly incline to the view that these small left field symbols represent mint controls, rather than being emblematic of Ptolemaic heritage.

Edit: I no longer think its a hat at all.

All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2014, 06:36:10 am »
Quote from: PtolemAE on April 02, 2014, 02:51:28 am
Thank you very much for the extended references and thoughts on this enigma.  ...  One coin just turned up and it is so peculiar that it started this discussion.  It has the 'hat' underneath a club we usually think of as the mint mark of Tyre and someone said it was a kausia.  That coin is definitely not so hot (condition) but it happens to be one of only two known specimens (with the hat under the club) and therefore so strange that some research on its symbolic imagery is worth pursuing.  That one is also uncatalogued anywhere.

It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma..... n.igma is my name and enigma is my game.... now for an unwrapping?

A bit out of left field, but another look at both controls symbols on the two coins you have posted above suggests the possibility of a tree rather than a hat... both have a vertical trunk like element appearing to end in a ground line beneath a triangular crown of foliage?

 Is this a possible/plausible alternative interpretation of theses symbols?

I think the symbol very closely resembles the cedar tree of Lebanon, an appropriate symbology for ancient Tyre!
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2014, 01:28:51 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on April 02, 2014, 02:51:28 am
Thank you very much for the extended references and thoughts on this enigma.  ...  One coin just turned up and it is so peculiar that it started this discussion.  It has the 'hat' underneath a club we usually think of as the mint mark of Tyre and someone said it was a kausia.  That coin is definitely not so hot (condition) but it happens to be one of only two known specimens (with the hat under the club) and therefore so strange that some research on its symbolic imagery is worth pursuing.  That one is also uncatalogued anywhere.

It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma..... n.igma is my name and enigma is my game.... now for an unwrapping?

A bit out of left field, but another look at both controls symbols on the two coins you have posted above suggests the possibility of a tree rather than a hat... both have a vertical trunk like element appearing to end in a ground line beneath a triangular crown of foliage?

 Is this a possible/plausible alternative interpretation of theses symbols?

I think the symbol very closely resembles the cedar tree of Lebanon, an appropriate symbology for ancient Tyre!

OK - an original thought on the subject.  The 'hat' (or tree crown) does seem to have a vertical center thing (like a trunk) and some kind of base below that (spreading roots?).  The two coins shown so far are thought to be from Cyprus.  Here's one more of those, very small though.  And this one may cause even further reflection as it seems to show long hanging 'ties', filets, or ?  This one doesn't seem to be a tree but it does seem like the other two.  One helpful person thought these might be the tails of a diadem that would be part of the headband part of a kausia.  It sure looks similar, otherwise, to the two preceding examples.  This little charmer is only 14mm and 1.19 grams.

Have a look-see at this one and there should be a photo shortly of the coin with 'the hat under the club'. 

PtolemAE

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2014, 02:34:39 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on April 02, 2014, 02:51:28 am
Thank you very much for the extended references and thoughts on this enigma.  ...  One coin just turned up and it is so peculiar that it started this discussion.  It has the 'hat' underneath a club we usually think of as the mint mark of Tyre and someone said it was a kausia.  That coin is definitely not so hot (condition) but it happens to be one of only two known specimens (with the hat under the club) and therefore so strange that some research on its symbolic imagery is worth pursuing.  That one is also uncatalogued anywhere.

It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma..... n.igma is my name and enigma is my game.... now for an unwrapping?

A bit out of left field, but another look at both controls symbols on the two coins you have posted above suggests the possibility of a tree rather than a hat... both have a vertical trunk like element appearing to end in a ground line beneath a triangular crown of foliage?

 Is this a possible/plausible alternative interpretation of theses symbols?

I think the symbol very closely resembles the cedar tree of Lebanon, an appropriate symbology for ancient Tyre!

Truly an enigma, the connection to Tyre would have been quite logical if there wasn't already coins from Tyre baring a club mintmark on them, as i´m sure you are already aware of. If this had been the case we could then have connected Tyrian coins with those of Arados that were minted with Palm trees.

For what it´s worth i agree with you, the mintmark resembles a Cedar tree/tree more than any ancient Greek hat that i know of.

Offline n.igma

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2014, 04:25:22 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on April 02, 2014, 01:28:51 pm
OK - an original thought on the subject.  The 'hat' (or tree crown) does seem to have a vertical center thing (like a trunk) and some kind of base below that (spreading roots?).  The two coins shown so far are thought to be from Cyprus.  Here's one more of those, very small though.  And this one may cause even further reflection as it seems to show long hanging 'ties', filets, or ?  This one doesn't seem to be a tree but it does seem like the other two.  One helpful person thought these might be the tails of a diadem that would be part of the headband part of a kausia.  It sure looks similar, otherwise, to the two preceding examples.  This little charmer is only 14mm and 1.19 grams.

Have a look-see at this one and there should be a photo shortly of the coin with 'the hat under the club'.  

Tree or hat, and now you through in one that resembles in profile one of those destructive, walking alien machines from War of the Worlds!  Enigmatic indeed.  

Indeed my first reaction to the to the "ties" was that they represented a diadem. But what to make of the vertical and horizontal elements beneath the main body of the hat, if not the trunk and ground line beneath a tree crown. To my knowledge, these elements which appear on all three coins, apparently with rigid form (perhaps vaguely resembling cheek/neck guards ?), do not  really don't fit the iconography of any known hat and certainly are unknown in the kausia, which was constructed of cloth/felt like material with no rigid elements.  

I cannot exclude the possibility that for symbolic purposes the royal diadem is associated with a tree, reflecting royal patronage of the mint city, or mint official, of which the tree is symbolic. I am reminded of the story of Alexander's diadem being blown into the Euphrates River only to be recovered by Seleukos. Perhaps during a visit Ptolemy's diadem blew into a tree only to be recovered by a local dignitary? Idle speculation but these things become the subject of both myth and iconographic representation and cannot totally be excluded at this stage of investigation of the form and origins of the problematic symbol.

You say the coins are "thought to come from Cyprus". How confident is the "thought" in this; a speculation or inference, rather than a definitely known or proven fact?  And even if the Cyprus link is correct we must ask how conclusive is this statement reflecting as it may a find location, as opposed to a mint location?  Cyprus is but a short hop from the known mints of the eastern Mediterranean and it is on one of the most travelled ancient maritime trade routes, so transference is a distinct possibility.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2014, 07:54:44 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on April 02, 2014, 01:28:51 pm
OK - an original thought on the subject.  The 'hat' (or tree crown) does seem to have a vertical center thing (like a trunk) and some kind of base below that (spreading roots?).  The two coins shown so far are thought to be from Cyprus.  Here's one more of those, very small though.  And this one may cause even further reflection as it seems to show long hanging 'ties', filets, or ?  This one doesn't seem to be a tree but it does seem like the other two.  One helpful person thought these might be the tails of a diadem that would be part of the headband part of a kausia.  It sure looks similar, otherwise, to the two preceding examples.  This little charmer is only 14mm and 1.19 grams.

Have a look-see at this one and there should be a photo shortly of the coin with 'the hat under the club'.  

Tree or hat, and now you through in one that resembles in profile one of those destructive, walking alien machines from War of the Worlds!  Enigmatic indeed.  

Indeed my first reaction to the to the "ties" was that they represented a diadem. But what to make of the vertical and horizontal elements beneath the main body of the hat, if not the trunk and ground line beneath a tree crown. To my knowledge, these elements which appear on all three coins, apparently with rigid form (perhaps vaguely resembling cheek/neck guards ?), do not  really don't fit the iconography of any known hat and certainly are unknown in the kausia, which was constructed of cloth/felt like material with no rigid elements.  

I cannot exclude the possibility that for symbolic purposes the royal diadem is associated with a tree, reflecting royal patronage of the mint city, or mint official, of which the tree is symbolic. I am reminded of the story of Alexander's diadem being blown into the Euphrates River only to be recovered by Seleukos. Perhaps during a visit Ptolemy's diadem blew into a tree only to be recovered by a local dignitary? Idle speculation but these things become the subject of both myth and iconographic representation and cannot totally be excluded at this stage of investigation of the form and origins of the problematic symbol.

You say the coins are "thought to come from Cyprus". How confident is the "thought" in this; a speculation or inference, rather than a definitely known or proven fact?  And even if the Cyprus link is correct we must ask how conclusive is this statement reflecting as it may a find location, as opposed to a mint location?  Cyprus is but a short hop from the known mints of the eastern Mediterranean and it is on one of the most travelled ancient maritime trade routes, so transference is a distinct possibility.

I knew this discussion couldn't end with something as simple as a tree :)  This third coin with the 'hanging ties' does look like the Martian invasion craft from the original film of War of the Worlds (1959).  In any case, the ties may well be the diadem tails that we see on the Antimachos portrait wearing the kausia that is so familiar an image on Baktrian coins.

As to Cyprus, the origin there is almost certain for the preceding 3 coins.  During that time period a whole series of various peculiar (for Ptolemaic coins) symbols appear on similar coins to these - a thunderbolt, caduceus, etc.  Svoronos called the symbol on these coins a 'petasos' but you will now see the fourth example (almost certainly from Tyre - and larger for sure - 36mm, 32 grams).  This photo is of a coin that isn't in such great condition, but as it is only the 2nd example known there isn't too much to be done.  I have seen a photo of the other one but don't have permission to share it.  There are not 'hanging ties'  or 'post' (tree trunk) or 'spread roots' below - the image has the 'roll' of smaller size under the main object that is possible the headband again - and it could easily be a kausia.  I wasn't sure what I was seeing on this coin because of its condition, only that it was weird and it should be studied.  Another expert who knows of the 'sister' specimen told me about that one and that the symbol is a kausia because it is more easily recognizable as such on the other specimen.

When I brought up Svoronos' identification of the 'petasos' the subject of Macedonian heritage ensued but now I see there may be good reason to dismiss that contribution to the symbol's meaning.

In any case, here's the image of the coin that started my inquiry about the symbol and also this discussion.  It is related to Svoronos 1059 (the club, double-filetted cornucopia, and PI control in the eagle's legs) but most definitely not the same thing.  Sv 1059 never has a symbol under the club.  Its wide bevel is also similar to some other coins of this type.  The obverse is the usual Zeus Ammon.  Sorry for the condition issues, but it is what it is.

Thank you again for your helpful comments.  If I can get permission I'll show the sister specimen of this coin with a clearer view of the symbol object.

PtolemAE

Offline n.igma

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2014, 04:05:51 am »
Quote from: PtolemAE on April 02, 2014, 07:54:44 pm
...... If I can get permission I'll show the sister specimen of this coin with a clearer view of the symbol object.

That would be good. Even  with my imagination, I struggle to see a kausia in the symbol on the last posted coin.  It looks more like a bird's head to my eye!

As for the interpreted diadem ends they lack relative scale (compare it to the tie/diadem elements of the symbol on the penultimate example and the relative size to that of the main body of the symbol) and they appear disconnected from the body of the symbol. I struggle to see them as raised elements on the coin (i.e. reflective of engraved elements on a die), more like scratches on the coin surface in my opinion, but this may be a function of the image?  
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2014, 04:53:04 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on April 02, 2014, 07:54:44 pm
...... If I can get permission I'll show the sister specimen of this coin with a clearer view of the symbol object.

That would be good. Even  with my imagination, I struggle to see a kausia in the symbol on the last posted coin.  It looks more like a bird's head to my eye!

As for the interpreted diadem ends they lack relative scale (compare it to the tie/diadem elements of the symbol on the penultimate example and the relative size to that of the main body of the symbol) and they appear disconnected from the body of the symbol. I struggle to see them as raised elements on the coin (i.e. reflective of engraved elements on a die), more like scratches on the coin surface in my opinion, but this may be a function of the image?  

I'll try to get permission to show the other coin.  Yes, this symbol on this coin is not clear.  But my friend showed me the photo of the sister coin and it is obviously the same symbol (maybe the same reverse die even).  It has the top and 'headband' parts of the hat, but no 'tails' (like the third coin).  The only coin with the 'hat' that clearly shows those tails hanging down is the small one (third coin).  Another specimen of the third coin (small size) is available in the coin shop area here of Forum Ancient Coins, stock #

GP62519

and you can see its photo here (hope that's OK).  The 'tails' are very clearly like the small coin specimen shown earlier.

PtolemAE

Offline n.igma

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2014, 12:52:53 am »
A stylised version of this petasos ? .... Note the attitude of the ties (not a diadem).
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2014, 01:54:26 pm »
Waking this topic back up with a new photo... one more that surprised me.  It's a silver tetradrachm with the *same symbol* (including the diadem ends or helmet tie straps) seen on some of the bronzes.  This one has a date attributed to Ptolemy VIII ca 137BC.  Maybe the clarity of the kausia/petasos symbol on this coin will be helpful.  The description calls it a 'helmet'. 

More helpful comments welcome.

PtolemAE

Offline Matt Kreuzer

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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2014, 07:23:02 am »
"In any case, here's the image of the coin that started my inquiry about the symbol and also this discussion.  It is related to Svoronos 1059 (the club, double-filetted cornucopia, and PI control in the eagle's legs) but most definitely not the same thing.  Sv 1059 never has a symbol under the club.  Its wide bevel is also similar to some other coins of this type.  The obverse is the usual Zeus Ammon.  Sorry for the condition issues, but it is what it is."  PtolemAE

PtolemAE, for this rather worn bronze could the object under the club be a piece of the club?  The club symbol of Tyre sometimes shows bumps.  Your coin has a distinct gap between club and object so it is indeed difficult to tell.  However, the club is placed a bit upward and is otherwise rather short, yes?  So perhaps not a hat?

Also, to the right of the eagle, there may be letters.  Can you see a faint IE?

What do you think?

Matt Kreuzer


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Re: Hats in Greek Coin Imagery - Kausia vs. Petasos ?
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2014, 03:48:20 am »
Quote from: Matt Kreuzer on April 26, 2014, 07:23:02 am
"In any case, here's the image of the coin that started my inquiry about the symbol and also this discussion.  It is related to Svoronos 1059 (the club, double-filetted cornucopia, and PI control in the eagle's legs) but most definitely not the same thing.  Sv 1059 never has a symbol under the club.  Its wide bevel is also similar to some other coins of this type.  The obverse is the usual Zeus Ammon.  Sorry for the condition issues, but it is what it is."  PtolemAE

PtolemAE, for this rather worn bronze could the object under the club be a piece of the club?  The club symbol of Tyre sometimes shows bumps.  Your coin has a distinct gap between club and object so it is indeed difficult to tell.  However, the club is placed a bit upward and is otherwise rather short, yes?  So perhaps not a hat?

Also, to the right of the eagle, there may be letters.  Can you see a faint IE?

What do you think?

Matt Kreuzer



The object under the club has been definitively seen on another coin of the same type in better condition.  See earlier posts.  That's how it was identified.  The wear on this particular specimen made it confusing until someone showed me a photo of it's brother that lives in a private collection abroad.  I don't have permission to post that photo.  AFAIK there are exactly two known specimens of this type of coin (with the hat under the club) and the reverse die appears to be shared by both.  Regardless of the problematic wear, this coin was too interesting to pass.  The 'hat' object is a petasos or a kausia, not certain.  It is not part of the club.  'Extra' symbols on Ptolemaic bronzes of Tyre are peculiar to see at all and this series has other peculiarities as well.  E.g. we see unusual secondary controls (AP and PI and PI-T-O in the eagle's legs) not found on any Alexandria issues with which Tyre typically shared controls on earlier types.  Likewise some have multiple filets on the cornucopiae at the eagle's shoulder and even tertiary controls (exergal).  Very odd coins, all ranging from fairly scarce (Sv 1251) to very rare (all the others).  Combinations of symbols with multiple controls are fairly unusual on Ptolemaic bronzes.  

We seem to have examples of at least two kinds of 'hats' or 'helmets' that play a role on some of these Tyre coins (not to mention caps of the dioscuri on some others).  Pictures of coins in earlier posts show some, albeit not all are associated with the club, just this one type and another (Sv 1320) that has the caps of the dioscuri and stars near them, with the club.

No IE near the eagle.  Those hints of lines that are visible are just the tails of filets hanging from the cornucopia(e) on the shoulder of the eagle, alas mostly worn away.  But those filets are clearly seen on other examples of this and related types.  None of the bronze coins of this or related types (1251, 1059, 1058, 1060, 1320 etc.) has any IE next to the eagle.  Some have E or IE or variant in the exergue (e.g. Sv 1320).  One example is known of a 1059 with a caduceus countermark to the right of the eagle.  You can see clear examples of them all and one that is an uncatalogued size (two or three known specimens).

www.ptolemybronze.com

on the photos page.  They're grouped together as 'decorated reverses' of Tyre, most likely ca. Ptolemy V.  Weiser attributed some earlier (Ptolemy III).

PtolemAE

 

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