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Author Topic: An exercise with a Probus Ant.  (Read 3099 times)

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Offline maridvnvm

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An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« on: December 14, 2005, 05:04:20 pm »
Hi all,
Every now and again there are polls or quizes etc. I thought I would start another one.
I have placed this here as I am NOT looking for attribution help and I know all that I need to know about this coin but I would like to get people thinking and telling me what they can about the following coin.
Describe various aspects of the coin, attributions, location of mint etc.
Regards,
Martin

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2005, 05:11:07 pm »
It's been very badly cleaned, perhaps with a wire brush. The poor thing needs a touch of Deller's to get rid of those ghastly bare metal bits. I've got a splitting headache so I won't attempt to find the RIC.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline maridvnvm

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2005, 05:47:15 pm »
No more takers?

Offline wolfgang336

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2005, 06:18:51 pm »
The style of the bust screams Rome at me, through the facial features, the style of the lettering, and the cuirriass on his shoulder. Could be wrong though....

Evan

Offline chuck p

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2005, 08:56:47 pm »
The horses are awesome! The front two looking forward and look at all those legs....

chuck
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Offline maridvnvm

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2005, 06:17:54 am »
OK,
So this is what I have:-

Obv:– IMP PROBVS AVG, Radiate, cuirassed bust left with spear
Rev:– SOL-I I-NVICTO, Sol in spread quadriga, holding globe, clouds beneath
MintSiscia ( :Greek_Delta: / XXI)
Reference:– Cohen Unlisted. Unlisted in Alföldi type 73 (Clouds underneath quadriga), n° -. This obverse legend not listed in Alföldi for this type. RIC unlisted between 778 and 779 Bust type H (unlisted with this obverse legend in RIC). Not in Pink for this emission with such short legends.

Nice detail remaining but as Robert has siad slightly harshly cleaned to expose bronze doe to heavy brushing.

BUT there is another major thing that should be noted about this coin that I failed to note before purchasing it. IT IS A FAKE. It is a modern Bulgarian fake that has been worked upon to deceive (the aging is false) and it certainly deceived me until I had it in hand.

Here is an entry from the fakes database:-


The coin above is a die match on the obverse and reverse. Instead of the white metal of the examples in the fakes board they have used a bronze(like) base for the coin and then attempted to age it. Even G/< from probvs.info was deceived by it from the dealer pics.

I was more than a little upset and disappointed in myself especialy since I was the one who posted the example on the fakes board.

So what was the point of this thread?
Perform as much checking as you can about the coin BEFORE you buy it. I rushed into this assuming it to be a scarce variety. I will tread ever more carefully now.

The dealer has offered to reimburse me for the coin.

Regards,
Martin

Offline Numerianus

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2005, 06:39:50 am »
Martin, I am surprised (and worried)  that you did not recognize that it is a fake
(of course, passion makes people blind).  I lloked for it only a few instants  but
felt that someting is wrong (knowing though that this  cannot be  just a case study).
Robert  remark is an indication: very suspicious cleaning. The patina is homogeneous and
delicately removed on the high points: to deceive but not to loose the value.

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2005, 07:11:46 am »
Stylistically the coin is OK. I am not convinced tha the cleaning is in itself suspicious. The coin is not right in hand and alarm bells were ringing at that poitn but I had no suspicions from the dealer pic (not the one above, which is my own).
Greed must have played a factor in the decision making process, I admit.
Lots of people have looked at this thread before I posted the explanation and nobody exclaimed "It's an obvious fake!".
I am disappointed that I fell for it but it will make me more wary. I am willing to admit my mistakes in public so that others can learn and hence my posting to this section.
Martin

Offline Numerianus

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2005, 07:35:18 am »
Of course, retrospectively, it is easy to judge.  What is interesting, the fake (unlike examples from white metal which
can be considered as imitations in the spirit of ...)
was intended to deceive experienced collectors who are looking for rare or unlisted types.
Of course, such a coin will be examined closely by competent persons and there are not a lot of chances
that the forgery remains undiscovered.

Offline ecoli

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2005, 12:41:37 pm »
Or perhaps some might had doubts but did not feel like committing a perceived offense ;)

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2005, 12:54:57 pm »
That shows how easily you can be deceived from just a pic!
Robert Brenchley

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Offline curtislclay

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2005, 01:38:43 pm »
       Probus is outside my field, but if a well-illustrated catalogue of his coins existed, I would have tried to look Martin's up!
       I look forward to the publication of the Probus section of the Venera hoard, and Estiot's catalogue of Probus in Paris!
       I have a fake from this same rev. die in my own small forgery file, but didn't think to look for Martin's coin there.
       Actually, I think Martin wouldn't have been so mysterious about the coin, if he didn't have a big surprise behind his back.  Just from the manner of presentation, we should have surmised, maybe it's a fake!
Curtis Clay

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2005, 04:49:25 am »
You're right; I'd probably have been more suspicious if I hadn't been struggling with school and a bad cold. Never mind, only one more day of the little so-and-so's!
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
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virtvsprobi

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2005, 09:57:39 pm »
Even G/< from probvs.info was deceived by it from the dealer pics.

Well, that was easy, because on my monitor the dealer pic is the size of a very small postage stamp.
I never gave a second thought to the coin's authenticity, assuming that Martin knew what he was doing.

I will never trust him like that again.  ;D ;D ;D (for the smiley "illiterates": this is a joke.)


Other than that, I'd be completely unsurprised if such a variant actually exists in authentic form.

G/<


virtvsprobi

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2005, 10:32:33 pm »
Curtis Clay wrote have a fake from this same rev. die in my own small forgery file, but didn't think to look for Martin's coin there.

Now that you mention it, I realize that I should have been more aware of the reverse die, since I have it on file as well.
So much for my eidetic memory...  ;D

Now, I do well remember this obverse, so that the appearance of the following coin in the recent Lanz sale rang some bells.
However, I believe the Lanz specimen to be genuine, and the fake die to be derived by whatever means* from another coin struck from the same die.

Fake:



Lanz specimen:



G/<

* - Perhaps mechanically, with additional "improvement" engraving to increase sharpness of detail.

-----------------

The fake obverse also combined with a Serdica reverse, rather demonstrating that whoever is cranking these out either hasn't a clue, or doesn't care. Maybe both ;D



Another fake coin with Siscia obverse joined to a Serdica Rx.




Offline curtislclay

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2005, 10:55:17 pm »
Highly interesting to have found the authentic original die, on the Lanz coin, from which the fake die derives!
No wonder these fakes are dangerous, and their style very convincing, deriving as they do from genuine originals!
Curtis Clay

Offline Numerianus

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2005, 08:05:35 am »
I must admit that this is very troubling discovery. Forgers exercise their  business for decades and
became and more smart polishing up the technology.
Do I understand correctly the ideas above? 
That is, these dangerous fakes are produced using the folowing process:

1. Cast copies  of dies are fabricated.
    It seems that this can be done rather convincingly but there is a smothing  phenomenon, revealing the method.
By the way, should be such copies be from metal or one can use modern materials like plastics or ceramics? 

2. The die is enhanced mechanically to increaase the sharpness,  and, possibly, modified by
    adding some small extra   details, polishing the fields, adding imitations of flaws. It can be also deformed a bit,    treated chemically to imitate wear etc. 
     From one authentic coin one can obtained a  family of quite close but different dies.
 
     The question is whether such enchancing can give the desired result. Is it feasible? It seems that it is,
     taking into account that one can ingrave a portrait  on the grain... 

3. Now the flan produced using  in a very primitive way  corresponding to the method which is believed
    to be authentic.  The coin is struck, silvered. Some further treatment is used to  tarnish the surface and
    imitate traces of wear.

   The crucial question: In which price range this is rentable?  Unfortunately,  this kind of  manufacturing
being applied by professional teams (say, in Balkans), could be rentable  even  for low cost  coins (> $20), especially, for silver.   

There is one step more to complete the cycle: to deliver the coins to the end users.
One can try do this via existing chains of supply. Could we  spot  this?  It seems that one should be
especially very attentive to  a dealer who sell regularly large quantities of high grade coins mainly rare.

Of course,  my thoughts above are just  speculations. I would like to get convincing arguments that
this is impossible (rather to live with an idea that there are  a lot fakes undistinguishable from authentic coins).
To the moment, nobody could explain me why the metal of coins from old collections differs  from coins
of current supply...
   

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2005, 08:45:36 am »
Do the fakes really appear to be struck rather than pressed? The Lanz coin has flow lines from the "M" of IMP, but the others don't appear to have any, other than the bottommost fake which seems to have some disturbance around the "M" due to having picked that up from the transfer/die-creation process.

The coin from the fakes database also has an interesting line at the bottom of the obverse (coming from bottom of the bust)... is that a die crack, or what?

Ben

virtvsprobi

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2005, 09:39:59 am »
I'd say that the ones in white metal were pressed.

G/<

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: An exercise with a Probus Ant.
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2005, 07:32:57 am »
I never gave a second thought to the coin's authenticity, assuming that Martin knew what he was doing.
I will never trust him like that again.  ;D ;D ;D (for the smiley "illiterates": this is a joke.)
I must admit that I thought twice about starting this post as it makes me look like more of an idiot that I already feel. I will not trust myself in this way again either  :-\.
I too had this coin in my files but simply didn't think about it until I had the coin in hand.

Martin

 

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