Corn ears continued

[mwilson603]

Being from North America, I always find it dissonant to refer to wheat ears as corn (to me corn is the same thing as maize) but I understand that the British term "corn" refers to all cereal crops. 

News to me.  I usually find that, in England certainly, people refer to corn as corn, wheat as wheat, rye as rye, oats as oats etc etc  In fact, I find it quite strange that in North America you refer to corn as Maize, and yet have corn flour, corn bread, pop-corn, sweet corn etc etc.   
regards
Mark

[mix_val]

Being from North America, I always find it dissonant to refer to wheat ears as corn (to me corn is the same thing as maize) but I understand that the British term "corn" refers to all cereal crops.  

News to me.  I usually find that, in England certainly, people refer to corn as corn, wheat as wheat, rye as rye, oats as oats etc etc  In fact, I find it quite strange that in North America you refer to corn as Maize, and yet have corn flour, corn bread, pop-corn, sweet corn etc etc.  
regards
Mark

Must be an old British term.  Corn (or Maize) is a new world crop like potatoes.  Romans didn't have corn...so a wheat ear is displayed

[Minos]

Where's the best place to buy Reka Devnia report ?

Click on Reka Devnia , bottom of the page

[Jay GT4]

Where's the best place to buy Reka Devnia report ?

Click on Reka Devnia , bottom of the page

Awesome!

[David M3]

I also live in North America and find it strange to read corn on coins 1000yrs befor Columbus discovered America. To Me corn or maze is the same thing on a cobb.

[David Atherton]

I also live in North America and find it strange to read corn on coins 1000yrs befor Columbus discovered America. To Me corn or maze is the same thing on a cobb.

Many years ago I had the very same question: www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=12373.msg85630#msg85630

[PeterD]

Being from North America, I always find it dissonant to refer to wheat ears as corn (to me corn is the same thing as maize) but I understand that the British term "corn" refers to all cereal crops. 

News to me.  I usually find that, in England certainly, people refer to corn as corn, wheat as wheat, rye as rye, oats as oats etc etc  In fact, I find it quite strange that in North America you refer to corn as Maize, and yet have corn flour, corn bread, pop-corn, sweet corn etc etc.   
regards
Mark

Must be an old British term.  Corn (or Maize) is a new world crop like potatoes.  Romans didn't have corn...so a wheat ear is displayed

To quote Collins English Dictionary:
Corn (a) any of various cereal plants, esp the predominant crop of a region, such as wheat in England and oats in Scotland and Ireland, (b) the seeds of such plants, esp after harvesting (c) a single seed of such plants; a grain.

Many towns in England still have a Corn Exchange even though they are no longer used to market cereal crops.

[mwilson603]

Thanks for that Peter.  However, I would be very surprised to find many people in Britain today that refer to any cereal crop other than corn, as corn, in spite of the dictionary definition.  As with most things, words and their meanings can change.  I was trying to explain to Mix-Val that in Britain today, corn is called corn, and other crops are called by their correct name.  Archaic meanings of words may have been originally used in older numismatic references, and that is probably where the original attribution description came from.  However I would certainly not believe that if I used the word "corn" in everyday conversation in Britain, anyone would think I was talking about oats or barley 
regards
Mark

[benito]

What is this female holding in her hands ?

[curtislclay]

I would be very surprised to find many people in Britain today that refer to any cereal crop other than corn, as corn, in spite of the dictionary definition.  As with most things, words and their meanings can change.  I was trying to explain to Mix-Val that in Britain today, corn is called corn, and other crops are called by their correct name.  Archaic meanings of words may have been originally used in older numismatic references, and that is probably where the original attribution description came from.  However I would certainly not believe that if I used the word "corn" in everyday conversation in Britain, anyone would think I was talking about oats or barley.

However, what Americans call a wheat ear is still called a corn ear even in recent British numismatic publications, for example

Crawford (1974) 13/1, "behind, corn-ear"; Crawford 264/4b "above, two ears of corn crossed"; Crawford 427/2 "Ceres...holding...corn-ears in r. hand".

Carradice and Buttrey, new RIC II.1 (2007), Vesp. 939, "to r., corn-ear"; Titus 136, "to l. modius with corn ears"; Domit. 396, "Ceres, std. l., with corn ears and torch".

[PeterD]

Thanks for that Peter.  However, I would be very surprised to find many people in Britain today that refer to any cereal crop other than corn, as corn, in spite of the dictionary definition.  As with most things, words and their meanings can change.  I was trying to explain to Mix-Val that in Britain today, corn is called corn, and other crops are called by their correct name.  Archaic meanings of words may have been originally used in older numismatic references, and that is probably where the original attribution description came from.  However I would certainly not believe that if I used the word "corn" in everyday conversation in Britain, anyone would think I was talking about oats or barley 
regards
Mark

Mark, I would disagree. I have always understood 'corn' to be a generic term for different cereal crops, and I have been around for a good few years so I would not call it archaic (or perhaps I am!). You seem to imply that there is a cereal crop called 'corn'. There is no single cereal called 'corn' (except in american usage). Most people today are city-dwellers and so 'corn' wouldn't come up in conversation unless it was written on a box on a breakfast table. Since corn-flakes and the like are very popular, probably most people in fact think corn is maize. However, that doesn't replace the original use of the word.

Numismatic writers weren't botanists and I don't suppose die-makers were either. So it would have made sense (at the time anyway) to use a generic term to avoid being specific about what the plant was.

[mwilson603]

Mark, I would disagree. I have always understood 'corn' to be a generic term for different cereal crops, and I have been around for a good few years so I would not call it archaic (or perhaps I am!). You seem to imply that there is a cereal crop called 'corn'. There is no single cereal called 'corn' (except in american usage). Most people today are city-dwellers and so 'corn' wouldn't come up in conversation unless it was written on a box on a breakfast table. Since corn-flakes and the like are very popular, probably most people in fact think corn is maize. However, that doesn't replace the original use of the word.

Numismatic writers weren't botanists and I don't suppose die-makers were either. So it would have made sense (at the time anyway) to use a generic term to avoid being specific about what the plant was.

Obviously off at a tangent with the original posting, but an interesting debate on usage of language nonetheless.  I don't disagree with the final point at all, and I agree that the dictionary definition shows that the word can be used as a generic term.  My point was to let Mix_Val know that actually most people I know refer to the correct type of cereal rather than use the word corn.  In fact as a generic name, I would say that most people these days use the term "cereals" rather than "corn".  If any one of the aforementioned city dwellers buys a corn-fed chicken for dinner, I'll bet they don't think "I wonder exactly what cereal this chicken has been raised on"

Curtis, I agree that recent publications use the term corn, however isn't that just a throw-back to previous publications, or because a precedence has already been set?

To be clear, I am not saying that corn is never used as a catch-all word for cereals in Britain.  I was merely stating to Mix_Val that I never hear the word used as a generic word in normal conversation, only really in numismatic terms.

regards

Mark

[benito]

"  Curtis, I agree that recent publications use the term corn, however isn't that just a throw-back to previous publications, or because a precedence has already been set? ".
 Publications and/or catalogues sometimes use the specific term wheat ,or barley,but in general corn . IMO they could use the term cereal but it doesn"t sound to well to my ears. xxxx holding a bunch of cereals. Or Demeter with cereal wreath. 

[curtislclay]

Curtis, I agree that recent publications use the term corn, however isn't that just a throw-back to previous publications, or because a precedence has already been set?

Mark,

If British people in general understood the term "corn ear" in the same way Americans do, then no British numismatists could continue to use that term in coin descriptions, no matter what their predecessors had done!

"A modius filled with corn ears" or "Ceres holding corn ears and torch" is a ridiculous error to an American ear, if in fact wheat ears not corn on the cob is meant.

[PeterD]

John Constable - The Cornfield (in German Das Kornfeld)

[mwilson603]

Thanks Peter, but I don't think that a picture painted in 1826 disproves my proposal that the word "corn" is used to describe a particular cereal these days, and not used anywhere near as often as a generic term for all types of cereals?
Anyway, (again), this thread appears to have gone off track.  I was merely trying to assist with a contemporary view of the usage of the word "corn" in today's Britain after Mix_Val stated "Being from North America, I always find it dissonant to refer to wheat ears as corn (to me corn is the same thing as maize) but I understand that the British term "corn" refers to all cereal crops.".  To summarise, I was only trying to explain that evolution of language has meant that actually in my experience very few people in Britain now use the word "corn" as a general term for all cereal crops.
But let's agree to disagree on this one
regards
Mark

[Andrew McCabe]

Curtis, I agree that recent publications use the term corn, however isn't that just a throw-back to previous publications, or because a precedence has already been set?

Mark,

If British people in general understood the term "corn ear" in the same way Americans do, then no British numismatists could continue to use that term in coin descriptions, no matter what their predecessors had done!

"A modius filled with corn ears" or "Ceres holding corn ears and torch" is a ridiculous error to an American ear, if in fact wheat ears not corn on the cob is meant.

Corn as in cereal sounds fine from the english perspective of someone with a broad education. I've spent my entire life looking at pictures entitled "the corn-field", seeing Annona with corn, and reading about corn in many other contexts where it has obviously meant just cereal crops. I don't even give it a second thought. In literary, historical and artistic contexts I see the word "corn" and think of cereal crops. I'm not sure whether I actually thought much about it. It's only when triggered by numismatic questions today "isn't that wheat" that it provokes me to think.

In other modern contexts, specifically those where Maize could be a relevant answer, such as "corn-on-the-cob", then it is obvious it has another meaning. But only today. Not when I was younger. I grant that "Maize" is less commonly used today, and in discourses with those of more recent, or lesser education, corn today means what maize used to mean for me. But my mental view has not changed.

In my childhood I ate "corn-flakes" for breakfast. It had a picture of a yellow cereal crop on the box. I, truly, had no idea until perhaps I was 16 or 18 years old, that this was Maize nor that I had been eating Maize for breakfast all my life. Maize was something that one read about in history books as a crop of the Americas and something that was force-fed the Irish during the potato famine. I don't recall ever seeing Maize for sale as a child, perhaps except as tinned "sweet-corn" whatever that was. I wasn't eating Maize for breakfast. I was eating corn-flakes. Which I presumed were made of wheat or some such.

[marrk]

What is this female holding in her hands ?

лимец - spelled - Triticum spelta

Rome,  Mexico, Rome   

[Robert_Brenchley]

Wheat is still corn over here! Maize is 'maize' or 'sweet corn'.

[PeterD]

Next time I'm with a group of people I will ask each of them to define 'corn'. A sort of straw poll. 

[David Atherton]

I thought the topic interesting and deserving enough for it's own thread and so split it from the original thread.

[BiancasDad]

I could be way off base here but I found this interesting.

I noticed the term "cornucopiae" popped up in a description of a Nero sestertius.

Borrowing from Wikipedia, cornucopiae is a genus of grass in the Poaceae family.

Poaceae are often considered to be the most important of all plant families to human economies: it includes the staple food grains and cereal crops grown around the world, lawn and forage grasses, and bamboo, which is widely used for construction throughout east Asia and sub-Saharan Africa. Civilization was founded largely on the ability to domesticate cereal grass crops around the world.

The term "grass" is also applied to plants that are not members of the Poaceae lineage, including the rushes (Juncaceae) and sedges (Cyperaceae). This broad and general use of the word "grass" has led to plants of the Poaceae often being called "true grasses".

Below is the coin and description with a picture of some Poaceae grass which looks similar to a corn ear in some respects.

Nero. 54-68 AD. RIC I 494

Æ Sestertius (27.02 g, 7h). Lugdunum (Lyon) mint. Struck 66 AD.

Laureate head left, globe at point of bust; countermark: X with bar above, all in incuse square
Annona standing right, holding cornucopiae, facing Ceres seated left, holding grain-ears and torch; modius on garlanded altar between them; ship's stern behind.





   

   

 

 

[maridvnvm]

Just another British perspective on things. I do not associate the term corn directly with maize. I am familiar with the terms sweetcorn, which seems to generally mean the maize kernels and corn on the cob, which seems to generally mean shucked/hucked ear of maize. Sweetcorn was not generally grown as a crop in the UK until after WWII and due to the local climate is still generally only grown in the most souther areas of the country.

The term corn is ambiguous and it's use depends on context. A corn dolly is a harvest tradition across Europe, which has nothing to do with maize, is where the last sheaf of wheat or other grain product would be formed into an form of straw work that traditionally captured the spirit of the crop.  When I hear corn I usually think of wheat but that is probably because it is the predominant crop where I come from though a grain of barley is still sometimes referred to as barleycorn. When I have seen it written in the numismatic references I have immediately associated the term with wheat and as such there has never been any confusion for me. Since many of these references are written in Europe the use of corn as a generic term for wheat, rye etc. for the generic seed head held on coins seems logical, at least to me and possibly many Europeans. I had never associated it with sweetcorn and the issue under discussion here had never even crossed my mind.

Martin

[Syltorian]

As a non-native speaker I won't have much to contribute on the "corn" side, but I'll tackle this:

I noticed the term "cornucopiae" popped up in a description of a Nero sestertius.

Borrowing from Wikipedia, cornucopiae is a genus of grass in the Poaceae family.

In Roman terms, the cornucopia (you'll notice a link to numiswiki showing up automatically on this term) is a "horn of plenty", from the latin "cornu" meaning "horn", cf. French "corne", and "copia", meaning "multitude", "plenty", etc. cf. english "copious". No relation to "corn", whether wheat, maize, rye or any other vegetable food. From the Online Etymology Dictionary:  s.v. corn.

"grain," O.E. corn, from P.Gmc. *kurnam "small seed" (cf. O.Fris., O.S. korn "grain," M.Du. coren, Ger. Korn, O.N. korn, Goth. kaurn), from PIE base *gre-no- "grain" (cf. O.C.S. zruno "grain," L. granum "seed," Lith. žirnis "pea"). The sense of the O.E. word was "grain with the seed still in" (e.g. barleycorn) rather than a particular plant. Locally understood to denote the leading crop of a district. Restricted to corn on the cob in America (c.1600, originally Indian corn, but the adjective was dropped), usually wheat in England, oats in Scotland and Ireland, while korn means "rye" in parts of Germany. Maize was introduced to China by 1550, it thrived where rice did not grow well and was a significant factor in the 18th century population boom there. Cornflakes first recorded 1907. Corned beef so called for the "corns" or grains of salt with which it is preserved; from verb corn "to salt" (1560s).

So, what Annona is holding on this coin is the horn of the mythical goat Amalthea, which nurtured Zeus after he was hid as an infant so his daddy would not eat him.

[benito]

Here you have (antoninianus)infant Zeus riding Amalthea before she broke her horn. Was it the right or left one ?