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Author Topic: Corinth stater  (Read 13428 times)

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Offline Rupert

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Corinth stater
« on: April 25, 2006, 12:30:42 pm »
Here's a coin that I've had for more than ten years now but which still puzzles me, although the type is one of the best known of all Grek coins.

It's a Corinth-type silver stater I bought in Hirsch sale 184 in 1994. I paid 700 DEM plus premium on a 400 DEM estimate because I really WANTED it for its magnificent style. It was sold as "Corinth or undefined colony" because it lacks the usual Koppa under the pegasus, and also because it is unlisted with this slim lyre behind the head of Athena in the reference books of Calciati and Ravel.

A second specimen from the same Athena die appeared in Gorny sale 81 in 1997 - probably from the same Pegasus die too, but with a Sigma added below the Pegasus!

A third specimen which was on Ebay about two years ago, same Athena die but with a Koppa below the Pegasus, made my confusion complete.

Can anybody of the Greek Coins experts shed some light into the darkness in my head?

Rupert
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Offline Rupert

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2006, 12:37:39 pm »
Here are the other two specimens:
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Lawrence Woolslayer

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2006, 04:53:03 pm »
BMC  Corinth (and colonies) pg. 114, 1 and 2 variant (lyre before, bow behind) c. 350-250 BC at Alyzia, Akarnania

Offline Rupert

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2006, 05:24:52 pm »
Gorny's say in their description above:

"The  :GreeK_Sigma:  mark appears in the same place on Pegasos / Athena coins from Stratos, Acarnania. There, however, a different reverse type is employed. There is no parallel for a lyre in this slim shape. Lyres in different layouts occur on coins from Corinth's colonial towns of Apollonia, Ambrakia, Anaktorion, Argos Amphilochikon, Alizia and Rhegion."

What puzzles me is especially the fact that one die - and one of special artistic quality - occurs on coins with two different mintmarks, and without any mintmark too.

Rupert
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Offline esnible

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2006, 08:22:57 pm »
I see four possibilities:

1. Could all three be modern fakes?
2. Could all three be ancient fakes, and the forger was imitating multiple colonies?
3. Could Corinth have had a municipal mint that struck coins for its smallest colonies?
4. You have proven the ancients used a hub system?

Offline slokind

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2006, 01:10:06 am »
It would be nice if Ed's third choice were the case.  The goddess is so beautiful, the pegasus not quite, but still.
These are so difficult.  I hadn't realized quite how difficult they are.  I have one (with a badly struck Pegasus) but its style, the Athena, looks a full generation later than on Rupert's.  The protective cloth protruding as on Myron's Athena (the one confronting Marsyas that stood in Athens), the attachment on the crown of the helmet, these and other features are quite remarkable, subtle and sure at once.  Points to compare are all over the BCD collection (Ravel's plates are not good enough in the reprint); indeed, I need more enlarged pictures or more coins!  My inexpensive one (and I am very fond of it) is somewhat worn.  There is nothing routine in the Classical heads and colts.  It is not just that Rupert's is not routine.  Pat L.
Actually, mine isn't so bad; it's just that I like Rupert's, and if I oughtn't, well, I do.  Mine weighs 8.55g.

Offline Rupert

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 01:56:29 pm »
After six and a half years, here's another specimen in the upcoming Gemini sale, again with a different obverse: compared with the Gorny specimen, this one has a monogram added left of the Sigma. More confusion...

Best regards,

Rupert
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Offline rover1.3

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2012, 02:46:25 am »
It is odd that the dies of yours and Gemini's coins look identical to the dies of the following coin of kc's!
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=76789.msg512329#msg512329
At the same time, yours lack the monogram below Pegasos, while kc's coin depicts a different symbol behind Athena!

I would not touch any of these!

Offline kc

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2012, 08:11:07 am »
oh oh, not good! :o

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2012, 09:22:38 am »

I think Nikos ( Rover 1.3) has it correct they all look suspicious now.  Sorry.
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Offline kc

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2012, 01:19:16 pm »
thank you very much rover for your help +++...will give this coin back to the dealer!

Offline Rupert

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2012, 07:25:40 am »
It's still interesting and strange. Let me summarize:

These coins have shown up over a time-span of over fifteen years now. The provenances include Hirsch, Gorny & Mosch, and Gemini.
They share one obverse and one reverse die.
The obverse die was used without an ethnic, then with a sigma, then with a sigma and a monogram.
The reverse die has been used with a lyra field mark which was subsequently re-engraved into a very elongated turtle. We know it was the same die since the lyra coin from Gemini and kc's turtle coin share the same die flaws above Athena's helmet.
Alternatively, the coins are all fake, and numerous sets of dies were made from one positive hub, and the marks and ethnics were added on the single dies.
The style is magnificent, and the coins show no signs of casting.

I think we should ask Curtis, who works for HJB and is involved in the Roman section of this auction, to take the coin in hand and have a sharp look whether he sees any evidence of forgery. These coins do have suspect features but I would still hesitate to condemn them now.
Why would a modern forger undertake the risk of producing such an eye-catching series of staters with strange ethnics and field-marks when he could just engrave a koppa and some common mark, and have a perfect forgery?

Rupert (still hoping because I have the initial coin in this thread ;))
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Offline Malcolius

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2012, 07:57:39 am »
Hi Rupert,

This is an amazing thread! I agree with you that the 2 latest coins are beautifully done despite the small die flaw above the helmet making it possible they are from the same source.

To get more power on the case I have sent copies of both coins to Romolo Calciati for his comments. He currently has only 2 coins listed in Pegasi Volume 2 from Stratus and they are both of Acheloos. I felt that the more specialists we bring into this conversation the better.

I have now a sizable collection of Corinthian Colts and, up until now, have not had a hint of any shenanigans with them. I also find it amazing that anyone who was going to create fakes would choose such an obscure mint.

Hopefully with all these big guns on the case we may get an answer and one that will make poor KC (and yourself) smile again!

I await a resolution with bated breath.

Best Regards,

John.
 ???

Offline Rupert

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2012, 04:40:53 pm »
That's great, thank you! These are so beautiful and interesting coins, so I'm really eager to know whether to admire or to condemn them.

Rupert
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Offline Rich Beale

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2012, 02:38:07 pm »
These all appear to have been produced from a genuine stater, which has provided a host for the creation of a set of transfer dies that have been manipulated to alter the control symbols. It is possible that only one obverse die has been used, which has been successively re-engraved. The obverse lyre may have been re-engraved into the turtle form. Note that the turtle is a deeper control mark occupying the same space as the lyre, and that the same three dots (die flaws) appear on both the late lyre and turtle coins.

At least two reverse dies seem to have been produced, both beginning life without symbols, one subsequently engraved with a koppa, the other with a sigma. Note the ebay coin which is undoubtedly one of these, but which cannot be a successive re-engraving of the sigma, nor the sigma a reengraving of the koppa, unless the striker found a means to temporarily block an already engraved control mark. The ethnik controls on the sigma die show a progression of additions from the earliest appearing example, to the most recent - we see the  :GreeK_Sigma: appear first, followed by the R :Greek_Koppa: :GreeK_Sigma:.

It is also likely that several obverse dies were produced, which if paired with the unmodified koppa die, will be difficult to detect.

The only useful image here present for examination of the metal is Rupert's original post. The metal is dull and lacking in both lustre and flow lines. It has a mildly grainy characteristic. While it is difficult to assess a coin's appearance on the basis of a photo, this looks rather like the fakes of this type that emanate from Sicily. Encrustations and staining are no indicator of authenticity, nor is corrosion. All of these can be artificially induced.

Note also that the ebay coin is struck on a splayed flan. While this characteristic is occasionally found on authentic coins, it is very rare due to the fact that it indicates an incorrect annealing of the blank which is more often due to lack of understanding on the part of forgers than honest mistakes in antiquity.

Pegasi are a staple of forgers, since they are a common type that often goes overlooked or uninspected by dealers and auctioneers alike. They are not routinely scrutinised like Sicilian tetradrachms are (mostly due to the fact that they are not seen as being Sicilian coins) but they should be. Most large hoards of Pegasi originate in Sicily, and forgers have plenty of subjects from which to make transfer dies. Before I am accused of saying that the sky is falling, be assured it is not. Careful inspection of these coins at high magnification will always reveal a forgery.

Thus, an examination of one of these coins under a microscope by someone well acquainted with Sicilian forgeries should reveal whether they are authentic or not.

Offline Rupert

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2012, 03:13:37 pm »
While I'm certainly not overjoyed about your posting, I thank you for your well-founded reply, and you are certainly right: It's the Ebay coin which would not fit into the life of just one Pegasos die with its ethnic "Koppa and nothing else".
You conclude your posting saying: Thus, an examination of one of these coins under a microscope by someone well acquainted with Sicilian forgeries should reveal whether they are authentic or not.
Whom would you recommend? Yourself? Can I send you the coin? After all, you sure know a lot about coins from Sicily - I just bought a VERY beautiful Syracuse litra in your latest auction (your no. 1102) and love it!

Best regards,

Rupert
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Offline Rich Beale

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2012, 06:15:21 pm »
PM sent.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2012, 12:43:21 pm »
A single pair of dies, with so many added or changed issue marks which are attested nowhere else, cannot be ancient.

The Gemini coin is reasonably convincing by itself, but cannot overturn the evidence of the changing issue marks, so will of course be withdrawn!
Curtis Clay

Offline OldMoney

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2012, 10:35:19 am »
Dear Curtis, et.al.,
I too have an example of one of these, sharing the same
'dies' as the one you withdrew from Gemini X, lot 55.

[IMAGE ATTACHED BELOW BY ADMIN]
(weight: 8.08g)

Unfortunately it appears that I will never get any redress
for my purchase, as it was brought from that real piece of
work
in the guise of [DEALER NAME REMOVED BY ADMIN].

Given his behaviour I believe he stole my money and will
not make this right as he knew it was a fake from the
start. In all reality, what other conclusion can I draw?

In spite of NUMEROUS attempts at getting a refund, this
lowlife REFUSES to offer anything, nor will he accept the
judgement of at least four or five world-renown experts
in the field, all of whom condemned the piece as FAKE!
He also refuses to respond to ANY emails. Scumbag!

Some thought that it could have been a BM electrotype,
or an electrotype from another source, but there was no
known prototype from which it could have been drawn.

That left 'modern fake' as the most likely, perhaps the only
remaining conclusion. With these other examples I think
that there can no longer be any doubt whatsoever.

Walter Holt

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Offline Rupert

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2014, 05:00:53 pm »
Hello, I have two updates:
1. I have got my money back for the fake coin I bought in 1994.
2. Another one of these was sold just today on German Fleabay by KFS aitnacoins; the lot of two coins (see image below) for 151€.

Rupert
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2014, 06:19:05 pm »
Wow.  Thanks for sharing this with us Rupert.  I had forgotten about this thread.  Glad you got your money back.

As Joe would say: Fake Coin Reports Please

You would have the most knowledge of the type to do them.

Offline Rupert

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2014, 06:30:44 pm »
That's correct; I'll do it. But tomorrow - it's 0:30AM here now.

Rupert
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Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2014, 10:30:27 pm »
Hi folks,

Wow!!!

This thread just blew me away. Thanks to everyone for posting. I've known for a while now to be suspicious of Sicilian coins. But now people need to be wary of these Corinthian-type/pegasi staters. I never knew that many of them are found in hoards in Sicily. I hope none of my Magna Graecia/Sicily coins are fakes. I purchased so many of them during the course of the past 16 years, from many different dealers.

I'd like to make a little note about the coin in the photo in reply #5. That coin has a symbol on it. I don't know what it is. About a month ago, someone started a thread about a countermarked AE Macedonian coin. I think it was an Antigonos Gonatas coin. He wanted to know what the countermark was. I posted in that thread. The countermark on that Macedonian coin looks like the symbol on the coin in reply #5 here. Could it be the same object?

Meepzorp

Offline OldMoney

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2014, 06:09:47 am »
Unfortunately yet ANOTHER one of these has been through the marketplace
(and in spite of my own warning email to the otherwise good and decent vendor).



See Fake Report here:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-15600

Walter Holt
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Offline Rupert

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Re: Corinth stater
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2014, 06:14:33 am »
Interestingly, the obverse die, well-known by now, has here been coupled with a quite different reverse die. Thank you!

Rupert
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