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Author Topic: Isegrim offline  (Read 9817 times)

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Offline helvetica

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Isegrim offline
« on: March 13, 2021, 11:38:33 am »
Isegrim has been offline for the past couple of days. I just hope they haven't decided to shut it down for good. I would be happy to host it on the wildwinds server....
I know that they didn't realise how many people actually used it until someone mentioned it to them several years ago. It would be a disaster if it closed down.

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2021, 11:08:26 pm »
You might be able to find a copy at ARCHIVE.ORG


Craig

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2021, 12:15:29 am »
Dear Dane, Craig, and Board,

Didn't a fellow Forvm member here already recreate the site in the event that something like this would happen?  Regardless, yes, I depend on Isegrim quite heavily even now!   

For what it is worth, the online Berlin Coin Cabinet has been down for several days also.  Could this situation possibly be related?   


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan

Offline dwarf

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Offline Altamura

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2021, 04:17:15 am »
If I am remembering right we had this already some time ago and after some days it came back. It is weekend at the moment, let us wait until Monday  :).
The support of such university applications is not always the same as with really important things (also because nobody is paying for that).

... You might be able to find a copy at ARCHIVE.ORG ...
Archive.org can store internet pages, but not the whole content of underlying databases.

... the online Berlin Coin Cabinet has been down for several days also.  ...
For me it worked as usual the last days and currently does  :).

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Altamura


Offline Altamura

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2021, 12:34:52 pm »
Now you see a message that they had a hardware defect and that during Monday it probably will run again  :).

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Altamura


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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2021, 01:15:09 pm »
Katharina Martin from the Numismatic Collection of Düsseldorf just wrote to me that all the coins which are in the Isegrim are also available here:
http://gcam.hhu.de/
She writes that it is a simpler system than Isegrim.
The new system is still being developed.

On that start page, there is the information
Quote
For specific reasons, GCAM will finally use two different databases. The original ISEGRIM database will still be available via the search forms now listed under "Search simplified" and "Search complex".
Additionally, there will be a new search form under a menu item "Search (regular)". This will retrieve data from a database specifically compiled for GCAM on the basis of the original ISEGRIM data. The two databases differ in how they provide and process the data.
Each of the two databases has its strengths and weaknesses: Most importantly, the original ISEGRIM database provides no images, while the new GCAM database will be restricted to one language version only (English). We will provide more information about the search options once the new database works properly.

I was so worried that Isegrim had been killed, I even offered to host it on the wildwinds server, in the same way as a couple of other former website owners (notably the old Corinthian staters website and the old Illyrian cow-and-calf type coins website) offered me their data before shutting down their websites, to save the data from being lost).

Offline Altamura

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2021, 01:45:21 pm »
It seems to slowly wake up again  :) , "only" the anonymous login doesn't work :-\ .

Regards

Altamura


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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2021, 10:18:29 pm »
I received another email from Katharina, she wrote (translated into English:)

GCAM is also not working at the moment, I didn't realise it when I sent my previous email.
The reason is that the old Isegrim is now only bundled into the new framework.
....
Something like this shouldn't happen, but they do, when someone switches something off, or switches something over, or.....


The team in Düsseldorf are working on it, so we need to be patient.

A friend of mine in Germany sent me this link.
http://isegrim.mybluemix.net/?
It looks wierd but it is still experimental. It is NOT a backup copy, BUT it doesn't work either because of an upstream error. Upstream errors can be caused by several programming errors, e.g. the database cannot be reached because it's not there, the path to the database is incorrect, the query limit has been surpassed, etc.



Offline esnible

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2021, 07:30:38 pm »
isegrim.mybluemix.net is my web site.  I made it to help people who struggled with the original search.  It doesn't actually have the data, it just makes a query on the original and makes the results look pretty.

While I was working on isegrim.mybluemix.net I saved about 99% of ISEGRIM into JSON files.  If the owners of the data permit it I can make that data available.

-Ed

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2021, 10:12:58 am »
This simplified version appears to be working now. I just did a search at random for Domitian and Perga.
http://gcam.hhu.de/index.php?page_id=20
The Search: "Complex" (= the original Isegrim) is still not working.

Ed m'dear - I didn't realise that was your website. The link was sent to me via Skype by a friend in Germany.

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2021, 04:19:18 pm »
I like the layout of the mybluemix search. I just tried it for the first time and got an "Upstream error 500," so I assume that is due to issues with Isegrim. I will check back in a day or so, but this looks like a great way to search the database. Isegrim itself is difficult for me and I need to practice more with it.
Thanks for all these efforts on these projects, they are so helpful.
Virgil
isegrim.mybluemix.net is my web site.  I made it to help people who struggled with the original search.  It doesn't actually have the data, it just makes a query on the original and makes the results look pretty.

While I was working on isegrim.mybluemix.net I saved about 99% of ISEGRIM into JSON files.  If the owners of the data permit it I can make that data available.

-Ed


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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2021, 08:19:48 am »
The old Isegrim appears to have been permanently killed.
There is now a notice on the gcam page when you click "Complex".

Update 17.3.2021: Leider ist es nicht möglich die alte Version des ISEGRIM Datenbankzugangs weiter bereitzustellen. 20 Jahre sind eine lange Zeit für ein Softwareprojekt an dem niemand mehr arbeitet.
=
"Unfortunately it is no longer possible to make the old version of the ISEGRIM database accessible. 20 years is a long time for a software project on which nobody works."

I am going to write to them again.
The gcam page is - to be honest - pretty useless. Whereas in Isegrim you used to be able to enter terms such as
VT: .*portrait man left.* RT: .*woman sitting.* RS: .*EPI STRA." using wild cards and still get lots of entries, partial legends don't work on the gcam page. If you don't have the full legend or the city of minting etc, it shows no results.

Offline dwarf

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2021, 12:34:11 pm »
The old Isegrim appears to have been permanently killed.

RIP
I helped to develop Isegrim as student in the late 70ies in Düsseldorf
First program code was written in COBOL, input via punchcards

Regards
Klaus

Offline Altamura

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2021, 04:28:26 am »
... The old Isegrim appears to have been permanently killed. ...
That's extremely bad news  :(.

... The gcam page is - to be honest - pretty useless. ...
I completely agree.
Additionally you cannot specify whether the search terms should be applied to the obverse or the reverse and you cannot exclude things. This is by far not "nearly all functions"  :(.

Do you know what is the reason for the shutdown? "No longer possible" gives much room for interpretation  :).

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Offline esnible

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2021, 10:29:11 pm »
I helped to develop Isegrim as student in the late 70ies in Düsseldorf
First program code was written in COBOL, input via punchcards

Wow!  I would love to hear more about that.  The system was very impressive for its time, and even for today.  The people who made that system were real visionaries.  Today people talk about "search ontologies" and things but that system was the first I saw that really did it.

I have the book Typenkatalog der antiken Münzen Kleinasiens by Otfried von Vacano from 1986.  The only numismatic reference I own printed in a computer font!  What is the relationship between that book and ISEGRIM?

The gcam page is - to be honest - pretty useless. Whereas in Isegrim you used to be able to enter terms such as
VT: .*portrait man left.* RT: .*woman sitting.* RS: .*EPI STRA." using wild cards and still get lots of entries, partial legends don't work on the gcam page. If you don't have the full legend or the city of minting etc, it shows no results.

Exactly.  I am a software developer.  I used developer tools to look at what happens after clicking SEARCH.  The front end is sending whatever the user enters, via a POST.  The response comes back with any * asterisks removed.  It is unclear which component is removing them.  The magic of the original system was that it allowed users to search wildcards using "regular expressions" ("regex" search).  It is unclear if the new developers were

- over-zealous at sanitizing inputs (easily fixed)
- using a database without regexp features (a bit harder to fix)
- chose to not offer regexp search

I would be happy to look over their code if it is available.

The code for my front-end, isegrim.mybluemix.net, is stored as a private repo on Github.  I am happy to give out access to their team, or to you.  (It isn't much code, just a some web forms that sent HTML to the original ISEGRIM.)

I like the layout of the mybluemix search.

Thanks!  I worked hard to make it easier to use ISEGRIM.  I wish I could have made contact with the operators.


Offline archivum

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2021, 11:31:57 am »
Thank you for all your contributions, Ed; if the original developers allow it, it would be a great help to have access to what you could salvage!
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2021, 08:29:42 pm »
It appears that Isegrim as we know it will / can definitely NOT be restored.
Katharina Martin explained the problem to me today and I can understand the problem about the old coding, because I had exactly the same problems when wildwinds was uploaded to the first modern server in its history (it had previously been stored on Daves old server at a host centre).

Quote
Unfortunately things are not quite so simple. The ISEGriM data are stored on an external server, and one and a half weeks ago the server failed. Basically the data is still there (which is why at least the "Simple" search on GCAM is working), but the complex, old Isegrim data also needed an "old" system in order to work and show results.
The database was built using a very old PHP mysql module and here lies the problem - the Simplified GCAM was set up in 2014 in order that the database would still work with a newer version of PHP.
"not updated" therefore doesn't mean that no new data can be entered, but that the technical basis was totally outdated.
Johannes Wienand (also receiving this email as "cc") is the person who has been caring for Isegrim over the past few years and should be thanked for his work, as without him, ISEGriM would truly have disappeared years ago. He is in contact with the programmer. Perhaps you would like to contact him ?

Ed - if you would like Johannes' email address, could you send me an email (my address is in my profile). Maybe you could give us hope ??

Offline dwarf

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2021, 04:19:21 am »
I doubt, wether Johannes Wienand can help with technical matters.

He is an ancient historian, focussing on numismatics, now holding a chair at the University of Braunschweig

https://coinsweekly.com/whoswho/wienand-johannes/


I know him a little bit through conversations when he worked in Düsseldorf and surely will help "on the short way"

Besides this forum you may contact me also by email

regards
Klaus

Offline Altamura

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2021, 06:09:42 am »
... I doubt, wether Johannes Wienand can help with technical matters. ...
But he "is in contact with the programmer", and it seems that there is a software migration problem. Let's hope that someone can be found to fix that.

Regards

Altamura


Offline archivum

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2021, 08:51:29 am »
If money's a problem, we could probably scare up at least some funds to help make this happen. Although Isegrim also tracks pre-Roman coins, I'm surprised RPC isn't leading this.
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

Offline dwarf

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2021, 03:30:45 pm »
The project was initially funded by the "Gerda Henkel Stiftung"
https://www.gerda-henkel-stiftung.de/

I suppose that money will be no problem

Regards
Klaus

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2021, 09:25:57 am »
Thank you, Klaus; let's hope someone will rescue the project.
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2021, 09:41:06 am »

Or at least rescue the database.

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2021, 08:10:47 am »
I have received the raw data and converted it to an xls file, which had over 51,000 lines and which had a lot of extra columns, e.g. with legends repeated, probably for internal use.
I have asked Düsseldorf whether I would be allowed to make it into one of my xls lists similar to my RIC lists. I would split the data onto three pages - AE after ca 27 BC - AE before 27 BC - AV/AR/EL.

In addition I would change (Anglicise) emperor/empresses names from the way they were in Isegrim, i.e. JULIA instead of IULIA, MARCUS AURELIUS instead of MARC AUREL, PESCENNIUS NIGER instead of NIGER, PHILIP instead of PHILIPP, ELAGABALUS instead of ELAGABAL etc.
Also correct words such as PRICECROWN to PRIZE URN.

It'll be a hell of a job and I doubt whether I would be able to add all the new variations which are e.g. listed here on forum,
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=49390.0
 because the details of many of the entries are missing. (e.g. some have "new Septimius Severus type from Nicaea" and show the photo, but without legends, etc. and I do not have the time to try to make out the details, legends, fieldmarks etc. just from photos.

I'll keep you posted about whether I get permission to do it. Until then we need to use GCAM and hope that the bugs (no Greek letters are showing, for example) can be ironed out.

If I DO get permission, would Isegrim fans prefer normal Latinized letters in the legends instead of the Isegrim format ? e.g. I would use F for P', Q for T', X for C' but I would keep the S e.g. SEPTIM because it would take too much time for me to check which coins have CEPTIM, for example - don't forget there are 51,000+ lines of data to modify.

Offline Altamura

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2021, 10:18:31 am »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2021, 08:39:00 pm »
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2021, 05:18:39 pm »

Offline clueless

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2021, 05:24:51 am »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2021, 01:14:10 pm »
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2021, 10:32:50 pm »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2021, 06:44:47 pm »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2021, 08:26:15 pm »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2021, 07:55:45 am »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2021, 09:46:36 am »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2021, 01:16:34 pm »
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2021, 01:34:55 pm »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2021, 02:49:42 pm »
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2021, 05:55:40 pm »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2021, 09:06:34 pm »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2021, 08:17:24 am »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2021, 12:37:42 pm »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2021, 03:27:33 pm »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2021, 08:47:14 pm »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2021, 10:37:01 pm »
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2021, 12:40:43 pm »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2021, 04:39:36 am »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2021, 03:05:11 pm »

Offline Perikles

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2021, 04:33:02 pm »
Ἐξ ἀνάγκης ἡ τοῦ νομίσματος ἐπορίσθη χρῆσις...,ὃ τῶν χρησίμων αὐτὸ ὂν εἶχε τὴν χρείαν εὐμεταχείριστον πρὸς τὸ ζῆν.
Ἀριστοτέλης, Πολιτικά

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2021, 10:28:19 pm »
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2021, 06:37:21 pm »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2021, 08:49:59 pm »
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2021, 11:17:57 am »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2021, 05:07:50 pm »

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2021, 06:20:11 pm »
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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2021, 08:34:27 pm »

Offline helvetica

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2022, 06:02:04 pm »

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2022, 02:50:45 pm »
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Offline helvetica

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2023, 09:30:10 pm »

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2023, 03:36:05 pm »
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Offline Curtis JJ

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2023, 09:36:29 pm »
“Collect the collectors…” John W Adams’ advice to J Orosz (Asylum 38, 2: p51)

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2023, 03:27:48 am »

Offline helvetica

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2023, 10:36:48 am »

Offline shanxi

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2023, 11:43:39 am »

Offline helvetica

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2023, 01:39:26 pm »

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2023, 02:03:39 pm »

Offline Altamura

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2023, 03:21:09 am »

Offline Bill W4

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #67 on: August 17, 2023, 03:32:20 pm »
I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member!

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #68 on: August 17, 2023, 03:50:48 pm »

Offline Bill W4

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #69 on: August 17, 2023, 08:39:42 pm »
I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member!

Offline helvetica

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Re: Isegrim offline
« Reply #70 on: October 20, 2023, 07:10:23 pm »

 

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