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Author Topic: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia  (Read 5079 times)

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Offline Johnny

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byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« on: May 19, 2007, 08:25:29 pm »
I need help with this byzantine cup coin, ( don't know anything about them except what I found on line )

 the obverse shows the same as the justin II coin with sophia ( can't seem to scan it properly) the reverse has the big M with a cross above and CON in the exergue,  but I have no ideal what the rest of the symbols signify

any help would be appreciated

as I said,  still trying to get a pic or scan ov obverse, what I,m trying to figure out on the reverse is the meaning of the letters to the left of the M and the symbols to the right

Offline Johnny

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2007, 08:28:11 pm »
here is the best obv I can get

Offline Johnny

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2007, 10:00:40 pm »
no takers on this ?

mernumis

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2007, 03:39:05 am »
yes it is JustinII follis with CONstantinople mint. the letters to the left of M is ANNO and to the right of M is III in dicating the regnal year as 3. between the legs of M is the letter  :Greek_Gamma: indicating the officiana. this is the first time i see a cup shaped follis. I wonder if it is genuine.... Frank

Offline Howard Cole

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2007, 05:26:42 am »
Sear does not list the regnal year in this way. He lists it as I above II.  In addition the busts are not nimbate as they are suppose to be on this coin.  Finally the coin he lists for Constantinople do not have a cross between Justin and Sophia.  This is why I did not respond, because I can't find anything like this coin in Sear.

It does appear to be overstruck and I wonder if it might be a contemporary imitation.

Offline EX.NVMMIS

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2007, 09:38:00 am »
Hello! I think that this con is modified after struck
Valentinianvs

mernumis

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2007, 09:42:13 am »
why do you think that?

Offline EX.NVMMIS

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2007, 09:45:38 am »
Because I'v never seen a cup coin from this time
Valentinianvs

Offline Johnny

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2007, 10:00:24 am »
what's nimbate


2.2 grams ( not the most accurate scale)

this coin came with an unclean lot of Roman I'm working on , should be real or at least ancient counterfeit.  ?

should I clean off some of the dark brown patina to reveal more detail?

EDITED...the measurements are from top to bottom  with obvers facing you 28mm and  across 30mm. these measurements are straight line measurements and do not contour the coin


Offline bruce61813

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2007, 04:31:52 pm »
nimbate is a "halo" around their head , think of a rainbow. I have never seen a cup coin from this time either, I didn'[t hink they appeared until much later.

Bruce
too many coins - too little time!!

Offline Howard Cole

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2007, 04:50:41 pm »
Can you make out any of the inscription on the obverse (the side with the standing figures)? 

I don't think this is a  scyphate (cup) coin, like the ones found after Michael IV.  The overstriking of another coin just deformed it.  The cup shape was not done on purpose as it is done on later scyphate coins.

Also scyphate billon and bronze coins never have their denomination on them.  That is what the M stands for; 40 nummi.

Offline Johnny

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2007, 04:59:16 pm »
I can make out partial letters,  will clean a bit more to try to reveal more letters

will post back in a bit

thanks

Douglas

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2007, 05:00:36 pm »
A follis from Justin II should weigh in the range of 13-15 grams. The diameter is in the range of normal if on the small side.

I agree with Howard, but I can't imagine how it would have lost so much weight as an overstruck coin.

Doug

Offline Howard Cole

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2007, 05:21:42 pm »
A follis from Justin II should weigh in the range of 13-15 grams. The diameter is in the range of normal if on the small side.

I agree with Howard, but I can't imagine how it would have lost so much weight as an overstruck coin.

Doug

Hi Doug,
As I stated, i don't think it was an official issue, but a contemporary imitation.  Looking at the engraving of the figures, it is well done.
Howard

Offline Johnny

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2007, 06:13:12 pm »
sorry folks I had another blond moment,  after checking the increments on the scale, the correct weight should be 20.2 grams

oops    ::)

now  I have a cleaner scan showing the few visible letters I can see.  still a little more cleaning possible,  but not where the letters are as I am hitting shinny spots

I see  ? O ? NE ? ?
the rest of the letters are distorted  ( not dirt, but damaged)

I am thinking of taking this one down to almost bare metal  would this help ID'ing it ?

Offline Howard Cole

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2007, 06:30:44 pm »
Taking it down to bare metal will not help in identifying it.  So don't do it.

Offline Johnny

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2007, 06:42:00 pm »
well I can actually say that I have exhausted all my resources on this one, 

I would like to thank you for your help and persistance with this  ( add another one to my tab )

Offline Johnny

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2007, 05:40:59 pm »
I have just gone through aprox 300 different web sites and photo's in the last 2 days, I found 2 references to this coin

the first was through an  listing stated      Justin II with sophia  coin struck over a justin I coin  no pics available, did not refer to cup coins at all



the second was from another site that I had no access to due to membership and fees required  did say in google listing cup and justin II  don't think it was it

arrrggggggggg   the stress of it all   

but I have to admit, this sure if fun  :)   I will keep looking

Offline vercingetorix

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2007, 03:40:51 am »
It is not Justin II and Sophia. It is a follis from Heraclius with Heraclius Constantine, regnal year III, y. 612-613. The shape is due to the restriking process.
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Offline Johnny

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2007, 08:52:54 am »
trying to find references on this   can you send any links ?

I also borrowed this link from Forvm  as I think it is the same coin you mentionned,   ( without the overstriking ,cupping and the letter under the M )

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?param=12849q00.jpg&vpar=677&zpg=11006

is this it ?

 I am also including the latest scans of this coin . this is as far as I want to go  WRT cleaning..managed to thin the patina at some places  and ( removed it   ....oops  ) in others.

oh  and one last question if I may,  in your opinion, what was the original coin used before the restrike ? I was thinking   Maurice Tiberius.  Phocas did not seem to make too many Follis of this type as far as I can tell, and Maurice Tiberius had some coins minted with the reverse identical to this re-striked one

 I was looking at it, after I read your last post ,  and believe the side indicating follis ( big M ) is original and just the OBV was restruck. this would explain the curves facing that direction would it not ?

I thank you for your help

cheers


Offline Pep

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2007, 10:54:54 am »
Greetings Johnny,

Interesting coin!

The details point only to Heraclius, Constantinople mint and, like mernumis says, the :Greek_Gamma: workshop.  It's Sear 805 and D.O. 76c.  Sizes in D.O. for this attribution range from 7.09g to 12.63g and from 28mm to 38mm.  The heaviest Follis of Phocas is 14.65g (one Interregnum coin is listed at 16.30g).  From the weight and looks of your coin, you might have an overstrike of a coin from earlier than Justin II based on eekacat's data.  Also, using a smaller die on a larger flan can create a cup effect.  The dies for your coin seem a little smaller so maybe that's what happened?

FORVM's coin is the same as yours except for the officina.  Here's a Year 5 (same class as yours but flat) in my gallery for comparison as well:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-26866

I'll also post two other pictures of it here (I had such a hard time photographing it and I just replaced the gallery picture - I'll update the link above if I change my mind again :tongue:)

Kevin  :)

Offline Johnny

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2007, 02:31:30 pm »
I thank you for the info, and after more research on this coin, and a few more grey hairs (  the few i have left are turning grey ), I agree it is Heraclius with Heraclius Constantine ( constantine III)

 is this how the attribution should read ?



Heraclius

Byzantine Follis:  AE 29-33mm  weight 20.2 gr  regnal year III, y. 612-613 AD ....Struck over unknown Follis and bent by smaller die to cause cupping

OBV :, LEFT Heraclius,  right, Heraclius Constantine, both standing. Each wears chlamys and crown with cross, and holds globus cruciger in right hand. cross between them

REV: Large M between ANNO on left and regnal year 3 on right chi rho Christogram above,  :Greek_Pi_2: under the M and above Exergue.

Sears 805

Exergue: CON ( constantinople )

Rarity: ?

anything else I could add ?

you also stated in your reply the following ( haven't figureds out how to quote yet )

"It's Sear 805 and D.O. 76c.  Sizes in D.O. for this attribution range from 7.09g to 12.63g and from 28mm to 38mm."

I'm not sure what you mean by D.O. 76c

I'm going to keep doing research on this one, and will keep you informed of any  (  lol  or lack of ) progress

thanks again for the help

Offline Pep

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2007, 07:44:09 pm »
is this how the attribution should read ?

Yes, though the smaller die/larger flan is just a theory.

I'm not sure what you mean by D.O. 76c

D.O. stands for Dumbarton Oaks.  What I quoted is just another attribution number, like Sear 805.  D.O. is a more specific and detailed work, except for the coins found since D.O.'s publication that are cataloged in Sear.  The full title is:

"Catalogue of the Byzantine Coins in the Dumbarton Oaks Collection and in the Whittemore CollectionVol. 2, Phocas to Theodosius III, 602-717" by Philip Grierson.

Kevin  :)

Offline Johnny

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2007, 07:57:21 pm »
your  theory is sound and makes sense for a re-strike ( probably the only explanation)

should I leave it out  or re-phrase it to read bent on re-strike  or something similar

and  should this be classified as error coin ? cause I have looked at  ( must be thousands) of coins and have not seen this error  anywhere else

thanks again for the help

Offline Pep

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Re: byzantine cup coin , justin II w/sophia
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2007, 08:20:37 pm »
your  theory is sound and makes sense for a re-strike ( probably the only explanation)

should I leave it out  or re-phrase it to read bent on re-strike  or something similar

That's your call ;)

and  should this be classified as error coin ? cause I have looked at  ( must be thousands) of coins and have not seen this error  anywhere else

I wouldn't.  Since the striking quality of these coins wasn't like it was in earlier eras, many of them are "error coins" in one way or another.

Kevin  :)

P.S.:  Neither Sear or D.O. have a rarity rating per se but Sear lists #805 as £10 for a Fine example and £25 for VF (not rare in relation to other listings) in case you want to use that in any way.  However, I personally don't try to quantify and note rarity since it depends on several variables that can change over time.

 

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