Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?  (Read 1740 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Aulus Allienus

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • "I am hungrily for new things." C. Iulius Caesar
Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?
« on: January 12, 2013, 11:13:06 am »
Hallo,

for ten years ago I bought this coin and was convinced that is Antiochos Euergetes VII.

Seleucid Kingdom, Antiochus VII Euergetes AR Tetradrachm. Antioch mint.

Av.: Diademed head right
Rv.: Athena standing left, supporting wreath-bearing Nike left on extended right hand & resting left on grounded shield, vertical spear propped against left arm,ΔΠ monogram above A in outer left field, wreath border.

Diameter 30 mm; Weight 16,49gr. Good style, very fine.

But I found a coin with ΔΠ monogram nowhere.

Can you help me please?

Best regards

Aulus
Haec et meo munimini,AMICE LECTOR, et Tuae notitiae. Tu iudica, sed sincere. Iudica, sed rationum mearum memor. Memor et humanae conditionis!
L.Beger

Offline rover1.3

  • Tribunus Plebis 2012 / Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1569
Re: Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2013, 11:19:32 am »
The monogram is ΔΙ (a combination of these two letters) and there is a Π below; Newell SMA 281, another one here: http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=492107
Check Newell's 281 here: http://archive.org/stream/cu31924029779729#page/n85/mode/2up

Offline areich

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 8706
    • Ancient Greek and Roman Coins, featuring BMC online and other books
Re: Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2013, 11:20:55 am »
The fact that you can't find the monogram (where have you looked?) doesn't change the attribution, after all his name is on the coin.
Andreas Reich

Offline areich

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 8706
    • Ancient Greek and Roman Coins, featuring BMC online and other books
Re: Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2013, 11:22:21 am »
Man, identifying coins is a cut-throat business, I had just found this one:  ;D
 
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=598750
Andreas Reich

Offline marylannin

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 32
Re: Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2013, 01:44:24 pm »
Antiochus VII, Antioch, SC 2061.1p

Offline PtolemAE

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1943
  • PtolemyBronze.com
    • The PtolemAE Project - Ptolemaic Bronzes
Re: Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2013, 10:40:40 pm »
Quote from: Aulus Allienus on January 12, 2013, 11:13:06 am
Hallo,

for ten years ago I bought this coin and was convinced that is Antiochos Euergetes VII.

Seleucid Kingdom, Antiochus VII Euergetes AR Tetradrachm. Antioch mint.

Av.: Diademed head right
Rv.: Athena standing left, supporting wreath-bearing Nike left on extended right hand & resting left on grounded shield, vertical spear propped against left arm,ΔΠ monogram above A in outer left field, wreath border.

Diameter 30 mm; Weight 16,49gr. Good style, very fine.

But I found a coin with ΔΠ monogram nowhere.

Can you help me please?

Best regards

Aulus

Some convincing research of recent years by Arthur Houghton and friends has shown that many portrait-type tetradrachms of Antiochos VII were actually produced by one of the Cappodocian kings (Ariarethes VII).  See NC 166, 2006 - Cappadocian Tetradrachmns in the Name of Antiochus VII (Lorber and Houghton).

These typesa re identifiable by the monograms and symbols and a die studie of hundreds of specimens (from dozens of dies) is part of that paper. One rare example that looks like the others (a portrait of Antiochos VII) actually says Ariarethes on the reverse instead of Antioxoy.  For some reason, likely payment of soldiers in familiar currency, this extensive production is truly imitative - convincing Antiochos VII portraits and even his (the wrong king) name are on the coins but they are definitely not issued by Antiochos VII.  For some reason at least one says 'Ariarethes'.  We see a *lot* of Antiochos VII tetradrachms in the market and it seems many of them are the Cappodocian imitations.  There's nothing 'wrong' about them - they're real ancient coins and contemporary - but they are a peculiar remnant of some historical circumstances.

A bit of research should allow comparison of this coin to the imitation type reverses.  Many sellers now correctly identify the imitation types because they are fairly easy to spot. 

PtolemAE

Lloyd Taylor

  • Guest
Re: Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2013, 11:14:14 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on January 17, 2013, 10:40:40 pm
...One rare example that looks like the others (a portrait of Antiochos VII) actually says Ariarethes on the reverse instead of Antioxoy.  ... For some reason at least one says 'Ariarethes'.  We see a *lot* of Antiochos VII tetradrachms in the market and it seems many of them are the Cappodocian imitations. ..... - but they are a peculiar remnant of some historical circumstances. 
More details....
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78222
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-85273
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-72273

Offline cicerokid

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
Re: Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2013, 10:34:06 am »

My coin.

On the latest research it is most likely now a Cappodocian copy.

Makes it more interesting, We can guess it formed a part of a blood thirsty mercenaries retainer.

But who did Ariarethes have a quarrel with to need all these guys? Where did he get all the silver from?

These coins are very common esp the copies.

Cic
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline Callimachus

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 624
Re: Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2014, 07:48:17 pm »
I thought it better to add on to an existing topic rather than start a new one on the same subject.  Hope that is OK.

This coin was purchased in 1997 as a tetradrachm of Antiochus VII.  This was, or course, several years before the posthumous Cappadocian tetradrachms of Antiochus VII were identified.  Curious as to whether my coin is a Cappadocian tetradrachm or not, I recently downloaded Cappadician Tetradrachms in the Name of Antiochus VII by Catharine Lorber and Arthur Houghton (NC 166, 2006) from the internet.

Looking over that document – especially the table of control marks on page 50 and the illustration plates at the end, I have concluded this coin may not be a posthumous Cappadocian tetradrachm. But I could be wrong . . .  I do not have access to Houghton’s Seleucid Coins to check control marks on the coins of Antiochus VII issued during his lifetime.

The table on p. 50 shows the control marks that are common to royal Cappadocian coins and the posthumous Antiochus VII tetradrachms. My coin has only a Greek omicron (O) in the inner right field.  This control mark is not listed in this table, nor do any of the tetradrachms shown in the plates at the end of the article have this control mark.  (Many do have a Greek omicron (O) in the inner left field along with a Greek lambda (L) in the inner right field.)  But there may be other control marks found only on the Cappadocian tetradrachms.

Your thoughts and comments would be welcome.  Thanks.

Offline n.igma

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 890
  • Life is bigger than a Tweet.
Re: Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2014, 07:59:29 pm »
See Krengel & Lorber  Early Cappadocian Tetradrachms in the name of Antiochos VII.... download acvailabe here https://www.academia.edu/1282780/Early_Cappadocian_Tetradrachms_in_the_name_of_Antiochos_VII
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline n.igma

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 890
  • Life is bigger than a Tweet.
Re: Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2014, 08:08:37 pm »
ooops. later paper posted above.  Should have been Lorber and Houghton's paper on Cappadocian tetradrachms in the name of Antiochos VII  ....PDF download   .... http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.royalnumismaticsociety.org%2FNC_Offprints%2FNC166%2FNC166_07_Lorber_Houghton_Vesely.pdf&ei=25ntUrjnHoWhkQXtjYAw&usg=AFQjCNHgw48PuzM6CE6AjWvjGnffUmghnw&sig2=iYYzY5GERHW6TaMkskD6uA&bvm=bv.60444564,d.dGI
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline Callimachus

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 624
Re: Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2014, 11:13:10 pm »
I already have Lorber and Houghton's paper Cappadocian tetradrachms in the name of Antiochos VII as a pdf file downloaded from the internet.

However I do not have the later one by Krengel and Lorber.  Thanks.
rvs

Offline n.igma

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 890
  • Life is bigger than a Tweet.
Re: Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2014, 01:12:12 am »
The controls on your coin and their disposition conform to Krengel and Lorber Mint II Emission 5 - refer Table 1 on p65 and Plate 11- potentially placing it in the early series of imitatives. I don't have Seleucid Coins Part II but HGC 9 refers to the Antiochos VII issues from the Seleucid Mints of the time (HGC 9, 1067 a-s) as being issued with Seleucid Era Greek letter dates (equivalent to our 139/8 to 131/0 BC) in variable positions (if any) on the coins, something absent on your coin... another pointer to a Cappadocian origin?
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline Callimachus

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 624
Re: Tetradrachm Antiochos Euergetes VII.?
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2014, 03:40:34 pm »
Thnak you n.igma.
That was the reference I needed.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity