Speaking of Grading

[Virgil H]

There was a recent discussion of grading here that I can't find at the moment. But, I was watching a few lots tonight in an auction and just got my post auction email telling me how much other people outbid me. Obviously, I didn't get any of them and they weren't even close to the big dollar coins. I never noticed this before, but my summary includes the grades. The coins, all ancients (one was early Byzantine), I was following had the grades assigned as noted below. Note that I do not recall seeing these grades when I was perusing the coins themselves, although many if not all were NCG encapsulated and those grades must have been noted somewhere. For encapsulated coins I look at, I never look at photos of them in the encapsulations unless those are the only photos available because the encapsulations hides things. Buyer beware is all I have to say.

-VG8
-AU50
-AU50
-XF45
-AU50

Honestly, I have no clue what any of these really mean and none of them are close to anything I would call AU and the VG8 is probably closest to reality, but no way it is that good.

This is what I was talking about with my dislike of ancient grading. All these are over graded. I guess it drives up the prices. Good for sellers and auction houses, bad for collectors.

Virgil

[Virgil H]

Just to clarify, I just looked again and all are NCG grades it looks like. NCG is going to ruin the hobby if we allow it.

Virgil

[Jay GT4]

I noticed this too.  I think they are catering to new collectors and modern coin collectors. I have no idea what all those letters and numbers mean as I've never collected modern or world coins.  For me it comes down to eye appeal.  Do I like it enough to bid or pay more.  That's it.  I've never paid much attention to the grade and it doesn't factor into my decision. 

[Virgil H]

I totally agree with you and that would be fine except over the past year or so, ancient coin prices seem to have gone through the roof. I am getting priced out on things I used to be able to afford. I guess that is my problem, but is this real supply and demand or artificial? I don't know. My heirs might be thrilled when they sell the coins I currently have, but I am also starting to get fewer and fewer. so it probably screws them in the end. LMAO. It just seems like prices have gone up way more quickly than normal. I think this numerical grading BS that applies to modern coins and is being pushed by graders and probably all sellers is exerting an abnormal influence. As I have said before, I have no idea the difference between an AU45 and AU50 other than when it gets sold to me it will be an AU50 and when I want to sell it to them it will be far less than that. It is a bad game to me that I just don't want ancients to fall into.

Virgil

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

This is a sad development. It has the potential to be transformative for the hobby, in a negative way, of course.

Meepzorp

[Meepzorp]

I think they are catering to new collectors and modern coin collectors.

Hi folks,

I agree. This practice may be helpful to those groups of people. But I can't think of anything positive about it for experienced or long-term ancient coin collectors.

Additionally, as someone mentioned in the other topic that preceded this one, most coins that appear in auctions today have photos along with the text description. It isn't like the past when coins were sold based solely on a text description. In my early years of collecting ancient coins (late 1990s and early 2000s), I didn't have internet access. And about 80-90% of my coins were purchased by me from mail order catalogs based solely on a text description. There were no photos. Since there are a photos today, and just about everyone has internet access, there is no need for that type of grading system.

Meepzorp

[Virgil H]

Meepzorp,
I think your points about photos versus mail order catalogs are super good and something I hadn't thought about. I think it is very important, we need grading less than before at a time when grading is becoming more important.

Thanks,
Virgil

[77HK77]

Grading is a subjective analysis based on a known die, specific struck materials and known quantities manufactured.  This works for a modern coin where all these parameters are known and recorded.

In an ancient coin we know none of these parameters with any certainty. Recut dies, mixed obverse and reverse dies, little info recorded of specific strikes, material changes, etc.

What does a grader of ancients base his analysis on? Known examples? This makes the grading of ancients relative to the known examples and not what might have actually happen. I suspect they'll argue they extrapolated the perfect coin from the known examples and grade against this idea. I'd argue that with a hand struck coin each and every coin is perfect as struck for that individual coin! A flaw in the metal, a weak strike, clogged die are all unique to that particular coin making it a one of kind.

[PeterD]

The traditional grading system using F, VF, EF etc. is based on wear only. (although other factors such as centering and corrosion should be mentioned separately) I would say that's quite objective. What is subjective is deciding what is coin wear and what is die wear or do you just lump the two together. Also an uneven strike could cause a scratching of heads.

The system (with all those letters and numbers) used by slabbers is called the Sheldon Scale. I don't collect modern coins so I am not particularly interested, but apparently it is a scale of 1-70.

As others have said, now we have photos, grading is fairly superfluous.

[Bill W4]

For myself, I consider centering first; then, am I able to determine most of the lettering.  After that I can accept a good bit of wear, these things are old after all.  I suppose most of my collection would rate as fair or probably lower but I'm very happy with it.  With ancients, I believe we all have our own personal grading system and it seems to work pretty well, no need for outside grading.

[Joe Sermarini]

Centering and complete legible legends are certainly a plus, but for some collectors they are not as important. I was talking to a collector yesterday who consigned a coin that was a little off center and had small edge chips that took part of the legend. He felt his coin was far more attractive than another example on coin archives on a nice round flan with complete legends but a weakly struck portrait. He was trying to convince me to list his coin for a higher price than the other coin and more than I wanted to ask. Personally, I thought the two coins were near equally flawed, had near equal eye appeal, and were equally valued.

[Ron C2]

Joe, you are hitting on exactly what I love about ancients. 

In modern coins, I've seen people de-slab a coin and send it to the same grading service multiple times until they get a (partially subjective) grade score that matches their expectations.  Interestingly, this strategy often works. 

For ancients - I don't even look at a seller's grading.  I ask myself if I am going to be happy with the coin in my collection and if I find the condition acceptable for my perception of the coin's rarity.  The only person I need to convince is me. 

If I were a dealer, my perspective might be different, but in the end, a coin is worth what the next prospective owner will pay for it.  No more, no less. And in my view, whether it's subjectively graded gVF or aEF likely makes little difference to the "hammer price".

[emcee]

 have noticed that a lot of NGC slabbed coins currently listed on eBay are not graded and, probably not coincidentally, not worth bidding on .  I have a few that are and am satisfied that the grade is at least close. Having the authentication is what adds value.   I have a couple or Roman Imperial coins slabbed by a second tier grading service that are graded MS 60 (a bit generous) and MS 63 (a lot generous).  How you can grade ancients using Scovill scale standards escapes me.

[Virgil H]

Have things changed with the authentication thing or was I wrong from the start? I thought NCG specifically stated they did not guarantee authenticity, although they would say something about a forgery if they noticed it. I thought all they "guaranteed" was grading. Here is the quote I just pulled off their web site. It is a wide open CYA statement that does not guarantee they are actually authenticating that a coin is ancient:

Authenticity — NGC Ancients will only grade coins that it believes to be genuine. Authenticity and attribution represent the opinion of NGC Ancients and are not guaranteed, nor is any guarantee implied. Please see the NGC Ancients Coin Grading Guarantee for complete information.

This is like the House inspector who cannot be held accountable for missing those major problems with a house (been there and been out thousands for trusting him with no recourse).

Virgil

[cicerokid]

The plastic tombs are for Americans so they can slot them between their baseball Mickey Mantel card collection featuring Babe Ruth signed autographs in plastic  !!!

I have been looking at some coins laterly  so how can heavily worn coins from worn out dies  be 5/5  2/5  NGC EF...............when I would say it's really FINE maybe Poor /Fine in the good old realistic days. When did worn  and mushy looking details from worn dies and honest  wear and tear ever be awarded EF status.

This is all nonsense