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Author Topic: Byzantine Follis Syracuse(?) bust facing with crown and chlamys on both sides  (Read 1112 times)

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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Byzantine Follis Syracuse(?)

Bust facing with crown and chlamys on both sides, distinguished by vertical lines and trefoil ornament on top of each head, three dotted bands from the collar on the right shoulders, vertical lines on the left shoulders, both holding globus cruciger or cross. I left on one side. The legends are difficult to read but perhaps a C and E left on the side with the I. Perhaps EO on the left of the other side. I went through Anastasi and did not find a good match. Anyone know it?

Thanks.

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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Bump.
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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I suppose if it was easy, I wouldn't be asking. Anyone? Negative responses appreciated too.
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Offline Peter T3

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Dear Joe,

It looks like a solidus of Constantine V from the Rome mint - DOC III Part 1.30-36 (Plate XI). Philip Grierson( DOC p.297) says the "earliest coins are of poor quality electrum, perhaps about eight carats fine. The later ones are of base silver, copper or potin, apparently with no gold content at all. Even if they were once gilded or plated it is difficult to see how they could have ever served an economic purpose".

Regards ,

PT

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Very interesting! Thanks Peter!

I did notice the style was more solidus-like than the usual Syracuse bronze. I was the slightest bit suspicious that it was the core of a plated counterfeit, but it seemed too unlikely. 
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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https://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?param=93539q00.jpg&vpar=18&zpg=106757&fld=

I really expected to list this for around $200, but I could not find anything comparable, except a few of the same type with a more electrum appearance. For my consignor's sake, I hope it is worth the price listed, but if it does not sell, the price will be reduced.
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Offline Byzantofil

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Perhaps this is an old contemporary fake solid, intended for applying gilding. For some reason, this "coin" minted from fake dies did not have time to be gilded. Please do not be offended, this is just a version.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Perhaps, but I don't think it was a counterfeit. I do not know of any ancient fakes that were gilded or plated after striking, though I don't doubt some probably exist. There are definitely some ancient fakes that were once plated but the plating is now lost or removed. As noted above and in the description, the debasement is discussed in DOC III. Grierson notes that none have plating.

I don't see any reason at all to be offended.
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Offline Byzantofil

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Indeed, it looks like Constantine V Rome mint.  Characteristic features are trefoil on the crowns and the letters IA on the reverse field.  Let me clarify the diameter of your coin, as both solidus (33) and tremissis (40) were minted in this design.  Here is what Grierson writes in the DOC III Part One:

Offline Byzantofil

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Potin (in Wikipedia): Potin (also known as billon) is a base metal silver-like alloy used in coins. It is typically a mixture of copper, tin and lead (in varying proportions) and it is debated whether any actual silver needs to be present.

Thus, the coin may well not be gold, or even silver?  We need to see what exactly Wroth wrote about this.
It's a little embarrassing that the image on your coin is more rough in style.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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My definitions of billion and potin are not the same. Clearly not everyone uses these terms the way I do, but my definitions are more useful. My definitions follow:

Billion is an alloy of copper that contains less than half silver, usually much less than half, and its appearance is clearly not pure silver. For billion the silver the was an important consideration in determining the coin's value in circulation.

Potin is an alloy of copper that contains, tin and/or lead in proportions great enough that the metal takes on a silvery, gray, or white appearance (often black when toned). If Potin contains silver it is incidental, unintentional, and is not a component in determining the coin's value in circulation. 
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Offline Obryzum

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In reference to the page from DOC III that byzantofil posted, I see the entry for (33), but the portion of the crowns under the trefoil ornament looks more like the crowns in (40) -- a series of vertical lines.  In any event, we can be confident that we have identified the emperor and the mint.

Offline Byzantofil

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Judging by the appearance, in the case of your coin, we are dealing with potin, no billon indeed.
Also, it looks like W. Wroth is correct in his assumption about the origin of these two ( and your one) potin coins (I've highlighted it in yellow in the text).

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Judging by the appearance, in the case of your coin, we are dealing with potin, no billon indeed.
Also, it looks like W. Wroth is correct in his assumption about the origin of these two ( and your one) potin coins (I've highlighted it in yellow in the text).

I do not know if my coin contains any silver or not. I don't know how you would know that. I have called it billon or bronze.

Wroth used the word "possibly" and he actually lists three possible origins. I don't think Wroth made an assumption at all.
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