Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet  (Read 7846 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kilian O

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« on: December 31, 2019, 06:17:14 am »
Hello guys!

I purchased the lot from [REMOVED BY ADMIN]. I don't seem to find much information about such amulets/pendants and find it odd it only has a hole on one side  ???

Was it equivalent to a modern day purple heart and was it not really worn?  Maybe the half hole standed for being hit in battle I'm not really sure,anybody that can enlighten me a little more?

Thanks and happy holidays to you all  :angel:

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2019, 02:02:25 pm »
I have seen dealers refer to these as Gladius amulets before.

I don't believe that that is an accurate description.

Just because it bears a vague resemblance to a gladius does not mean it is one.  It is roughly sword shaped and has a knob at the top.    If it is meant to be a gladius it lacks a handle.  If you are going to the trouble of putting the know for a pommel why leave out a handle?

The Romans did make fibula in the shape of genuine items but this is clearly not a fibula or fibula part.

Could well be a case of pareidolia - seeing a pattern or object that was not really intended.  For example the well-known propeller belt plaques or stiffeners obviously do not represent propellers. 

The second problem is the term amulet.  What is an amuletRomans had various small objects - fibula, belt plaques, furniture decorations, ear-rings, beads, hangers for belts/aprons/horse harness.  There were some amulet-like objects that hung from necklaces - such as the bulla symbolizing childhood. 

They didn't have medals.  The Roman's didn't have any wearable military awards except the large round phalera and perhaps gilded fibula.

Not sure how your object fastened on to anything.  The round spot on the back does not appear to be a hole going through.  Is it the base of a lost post or rivet head?  If so it was probably fastened to leather.

Until we see such an item in proper archaeological context we can't be sure what it is.

SC
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Kilian O

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2020, 04:01:15 am »
Yeah it's kinda odd that there are quite a few arround and we not having an idea for what it was used. My safe bet is that it was decoration/ornament for like you said on leather or any other material prob for a soldier of some kind cause I don't see civilians wearing a sword.  As for the complaint about why there's no handle: I think it depends on the maker, the knob and shape of blade make it look like a gladius, it's symmetric and has the hole at the same position as many other of these bronze swords and also the cuts on the hilt that have been found. So I think the claim of pareidolia is a bit far stretched however it is possible but then all of those that have been found are. This is the one a fellow collecter has: https://imgur.com/a/pz0quDK It's good that you are critical about it and you should be. I guess we won't be really sure what it's purpose was.

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2020, 07:16:48 pm »
You bought from a reputable dealer - though that doesn't mean that all the descriptions are correct. 

But my skepticism comes from seeing other dealers where everything is either "legionary" or "gladiator" or, if medieval "viking".  A lot of people out there are being overcharged or plain ripped off.

SC

SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2020, 10:13:15 pm »
Yes, like "voting sticks"  :)

Offline Kilian O

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2020, 05:14:47 pm »
Description wasn't either one of those it was more like bronze sword but I totally get what you mean. Apparently the other side of the hole was filled with concrete-like sand and I managed to remove that so it has a hole going straight through it now. But I guess my question has been answered kinda...I believe it to be old and from that period however it can be anything, sure you can make some guesses but untill ppl with knowledge form an opinion it's all up in the air. I know these get faked and stuff like voting sticks,statues etc especially on Ebay but since this is from a respectable dealer I am willing te believe it's from roman period age, like the aging on it and the sand being almost concrete.

I appreciate your feedback and I don't like it either when something gets labeled as being 'this' or 'that'. Got it from auction cause I thought it'd look cool with my collection of coins, I like to believe it's roman age and I know it's likely it wasn't legionary or gladiator  that being like a 1% chance, but if genuine it must have had some use. Could aswell be a mass produced item sold by stalls all across the empire who knows.

 :)

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2020, 09:00:03 am »
Just curious, what is the length of these things?
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Kilian O

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2020, 07:48:03 pm »
This one is arround 43mm long

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2020, 09:21:26 am »
Is there any indication of hammering on the ball? I ask because I wonder if they might have been some sort of knob and the blade is actually the nail which was driven into wood. I realize this is unlikely, but just a thought.
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline v-drome

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1060
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2020, 03:32:11 pm »
I think Joe is on to something.  Here is a smaller one from Caesarea Maritima.  The round part is slightly flattened, and there is a small dent, not so visible.  I am thinking it could have been driven into a wooden box as a foot, with the cut feature above the "blade" acting as a stop.  There is incised decoration on one side only.  There is no hole in the "blade", which could have served as an anchor on the others.  This piece is 24mm. and 5.87gm.  I have been wondering for years what this could be.
(click for larger pic)

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2020, 08:27:58 pm »
V-drome,

Your item is definitely the foot of a small casket or box.  

The ball sat on the ground.  The grooves in the ball are toes from a stylized lion's paw.  Larger caskets had bronze feet in actual paw form.

The box rested on the small flat bit and the pointy bit ran up the side of the box.

I think that this is likely what the other ones like Kilian's are.  They have less of "shelf" so instead have a hole where the foot was riveted to the side of the casket or box.

SC
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2020, 09:10:14 pm »
Though the bottom of the feet are more complex, the long "blade" with hole can be seen on feet 5243 and 5363 A+B on this page:

http://romanlocks.com/Chestlocks.htm#Casket_and_Chest_Legs,_Images [LINK BROKEN 9 JUN 2020]

of the website Donald Jackson's Roman Gallery of Locks, Keys and Seals.  

The site notes that such small feet could be found on pyxis - cosmetic jars/cases, acerra - incense caskets, capsa - scroll-cases or stands, etc.

SC
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline v-drome

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1060
Wow!  Very interesting.  Thanks again, Shawn, and Kilian O for starting this post.

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2020, 10:15:19 pm »
Makes a lot more sense.

Offline Kilian O

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2020, 11:30:20 am »
I decided to make some extra photo's even tho they aren't the best. They do show some similarities but i'm not 100% sure.
Can see how it can be perceived as a foot for some lil chest but also as a sword meant for a chain or something. Surely if it was meant to hold something up there must be examples out there... ???
Let's say the hole was to put a rivet or nail through on the side of a box/casket, then the rest of it would be facing outwards  cause unlike v-drome the blade is exactly in the middle and symmetric.
The knob is quite round on the top, but I'll be quite dissapointed if all these "amulets" are all just pieces of a chest  ::)

Offline Jarle D

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2020, 03:12:16 pm »
Hello! I'm the owner of the other "amulet" linked above! Mine is also pretty symmetrical, with the "blade" coming from the middle, and the pattern on the guard going all the way around. If we can plausibly decide what this actually used for, that would actually be cool IMO. Then maybe we could also get all these dealers to stop spreading outdated information. It's uncanny how much it resembles a gladius or a spatha though!

Edit: here's the only thing resembling information regarding these items I've been able to find, from a Georgian newspaper of all things: https://agenda.ge/en/news/2016/30
This doesn't prove a single thing, and nothing is really referenced or quoted, but apparently there are "experts" and a museum involved.

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2020, 01:57:50 pm »
Could be an amulet but "believed to have been worn as an amulet by an unknown gladiator in Rome" is nonsense.
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Mayadigger

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1968
  • Romans, lock your wives way!
    • Noble Roman Coins
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2020, 02:22:00 pm »
Ave!

A casket leg, for sure. I have many in my collection.

The example below is Copper alloy; 35mm/8.0gm

As seen in the photo, this ball-ended casket leg was once fully silvered/tinned and would have adorned the bottom of a small wooden casket or box, etc..

Sometimes even well-regarded sources can make mistakes. In Appels & Laycock's Roman Buckles & Military Fittings, see page 127, figure AA14.53, described as a harness decoration. It is not, but rather another casket leg...just saying.  ;)

Regards,

Kevin
"Goodbye, Livia: never forget our marriage!"

Offline Jarle D

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2020, 04:07:40 am »
Very interesting. While slightly disappointing (and probably less valuable), I still think it's cool to get to know what it actually is. May I ask how you know? Has the been complete casket findings or something? Also is there any logical way we could inform dealers selling these as sword amulets?

Offline Mayadigger

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1968
  • Romans, lock your wives way!
    • Noble Roman Coins
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2020, 06:08:01 pm »
Ave Jarle D,

Very interesting. While slightly disappointing (and probably less valuable), I still think it's cool to get to know what it actually is. May I ask how you know? Has the been complete casket findings or something? Also is there any logical way we could inform dealers selling these as sword amulets?

Your casket leg is certainly less valuable, but that doesn't really matter; it's simply cool to have anything from ancient Rome, you know?
Seen below is a photo of a true sword amulet from one of my resource guides.

How do I know? Hmmm...twenty years experience of selling such things, reference books and all the valuable knowledge from members here on Forum.
Not sure if an entire wooden casket has ever been found. Shawn and others may know more than I.

As for informing dealers what is what? Forget about it. The other day I was perusing Roman Artifacts on eBay (the horror!) and saw something or other listed as Roman - Found in Thailand!

Best regards,

Kevin
"Goodbye, Livia: never forget our marriage!"

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2020, 07:14:36 am »
I don't think casket leg is a certainty. They are clearly some sort of ornamental hardware, but caskets don't actually need legs. Perhaps they were casket legs or perhaps they were used for something else on the caskets. Also, caskets are not the only wooden things that need hardware. They may have been used on other things. It would be interesting to know how many of them are typically found when they are found in a grave and if they are ever found outside of graves.
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2020, 09:29:21 am »
I would suggest looking at items found in Herculaneum and Pompeii since many wood items were preserved.  I may be in Naples this fall and will keep my eye open at the museum.

Offline Mayadigger

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1968
  • Romans, lock your wives way!
    • Noble Roman Coins
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2020, 06:20:36 pm »
Ave Joe, et al!

I don't think casket leg is a certainty. They are clearly some sort of ornamental hardware, but caskets don't actually need legs. Perhaps they were casket legs or perhaps they were used for something else on the caskets. Also, caskets are not the only wooden things that need hardware. They may have been used on other things. It would be interesting to know how many of them are typically found when they are found in a grave and if they are ever found outside of graves.

Sorry, Joe, but Killian's is certainly a leg for a casket or small box. It has a hole to be fixed to the same.
Certainly not all such had legs, as only the wealthy could afford such luxury.

Killian's is rather simplistic, much that the 1st photo seen below.

Copper alloy, 54mm/16.3gm In the form of a horse's hoof, it has the same holes for attaching to cabinet, box, whatever...

If anyone would like to see other casket legs in my collection, please respond.

I would suggest looking at items found in Herculaneum and Pompeii since many wood items were preserved.  I may be in Naples this fall and will keep my eye open at the museum.

 +++

Best to all,

Kevin

"Goodbye, Livia: never forget our marriage!"

Aleksanr B

  • Guest
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2020, 05:55:06 am »

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2020, 07:21:24 am »
Sorry, Joe, but Killian's is certainly a leg for a casket or small box. It has a hole to be fixed to the same.

A small box is not a casket, which is my point. I don't want to call these "casket legs" if they were also used for other boxes or furniture. It is an ugly association.

otlichnik notes above that the the website, Donald Jackson's Roman Gallery of Locks, Keys and Seals, notes that such small feet could be found on pyxis - cosmetic jars/cases, acerra - incense caskets, capsa - scroll-cases or stands, etc.

Sadly, the Roman locks website is offline today. I hope it comes back. It was an excellent website.
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline *Alex

  • Tribunus Plebis 2022
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Etiam Iovis omnibus placere non possunt.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2020, 10:01:13 am »

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2020, 10:36:10 am »
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2020, 10:47:08 am »
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline *Alex

  • Tribunus Plebis 2022
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Etiam Iovis omnibus placere non possunt.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2020, 11:05:18 am »

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2020, 04:29:47 pm »
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2020, 05:09:53 pm »
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2020, 05:17:43 pm »

Offline v-drome

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1060
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2020, 10:16:21 pm »

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2020, 09:24:42 am »
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Jarle D

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2020, 08:50:15 am »

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Would like to know/get more info about 'gladius' amulet
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2020, 03:30:38 pm »
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity