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Author Topic: Diocletian Genio Popvli Romani Alexandria  (Read 3682 times)

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Offline Heliodromus

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Diocletian Genio Popvli Romani Alexandria
« on: August 02, 2009, 09:35:36 pm »
Totally wrong bust style for Alexandria, plus wrong obverse legend (should be IMP C). Too big.

28mm 10.4g

Maybe someone else can file a fake report, since I tried but it used my registration ID rather than board handle, so I deleted it.

Ben

Offline Gaseous Maximus

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Re: Diocletian Genio Popvli Romani Alexandria
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2009, 02:17:10 am »
Not so fast Congius. Why do you think it's the wrong bust style for Alexandria ?  Was the style so different from other mints  around the empire ? Not in my admittedly limited experience.

I have three large Folli from Diocletian with this reverse- Genio Populi Romani. Mints are Lugdunum, Trier and Ticinium. Weights are 10.2 g, 10.5g and 10.8 g; 25 - 28mm in size. This coin looks genuine to me. 

Gaseous

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Diocletian Genio Popvli Romani Alexandria
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2009, 06:02:12 am »
The style was indeed quite different and very distinctive. This bust style seems more like Carthage than anything to me and certainly not Alexandria.

Here is a coin from the same issue from the Forum previous sales.



Martin

vozmozhno

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Re: Diocletian Genio Popvli Romani Alexandria
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2009, 11:37:15 am »
Interesting fake though, since the obv. definitely look Carthaginian while the rev. looks possibly Alexandrian (style is a little wierd though). Is it a cast from two different coins?

Offline xintaris75

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Re: Diocletian Genio Popvli Romani Alexandria
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2009, 04:41:04 pm »
Ω ΖΕΥ, ΠΑΤΕΡ ΖΕΥ,
ΣΟΝ ΜΕΝ ΟΥΡΑΝΟΥ ΚΡΑΤΟΣ.
ΣΥ Δ' ΕΡΓ' ΕΠ' ΑΝΘΡΩΠΩΝ ΟΡΑΪΣ
ΛΕΩΡΓΑ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΜΙΣΤΑ.
ΣΟΙ ΔΕ ΘΗΡΙΩΝ ΥΒΡΙΣ ΤΕ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΚΗ ΜΕΛΕΙ.

vozmozhno

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Re: Diocletian Genio Popvli Romani Alexandria
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2009, 03:18:06 am »
I would assume not, since I don't believe the obverse of this coin is from a modern die.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Diocletian Genio Popvli Romani Alexandria
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2009, 01:33:03 pm »
When I first looked at the coin in question here, the thing that struck me was fabric rather than style (but I agree the style looks odd for Alexandria).  The XXI large folles I've experienced (not all that many) tend to have a more billon look rather like Martin's example and often have considerable remaining silver coat.  The original coin here looks redder and less alloyed.  These were made when the alloy was important so I'd expect the question here might be cleared up with a test to see if the coin actually is 4.77% silver as advertised. 

I'll throw out three coins I feel apply to the subject.  I'd be interested in hearing if any of you doubt the correctness of these.  They came from more than slightly respected name sources.

Diocletian but the XXI is all on one side


Galerius but from the same period.  Note the 'billon look'.


Constantius .... and yes this is a trick question. 


Clay molds for ancient cast fakes are known from this period and locality.  The question we must ask is how to tell the product of these ancient counterfeiters from that of their modern day descendants.  The seller of the Constantius was of the opinion the coin was ancient.  Obviously it is a cast.  It is not good enough to be more than a tourist item if modern but appears to me to be about what I would expect to come from a user of the (supposedly old) clay molds I have seen.  Opinions?

Offline bpmurphy

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Re: Diocletian Genio Popvli Romani Alexandria
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2009, 01:51:00 pm »
This is just a modern creation from modern dies. The obverse style clearly isn't Alexandrian and as has been stated is closer to Carthage than anything else.  Carthage of course didn't strike any GPR reverses. The fully draped Genius on the reverse isn't right for any mint. The obverse die may have been created from an authentic host, but the flan is clearly modern thus making the dies modern as well.

Barry Murphy

vozmozhno

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Re: Diocletian Genio Popvli Romani Alexandria
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2009, 12:25:22 am »
This is just a modern creation from modern dies. The obverse style clearly isn't Alexandrian and as has been stated is closer to Carthage than anything else.  Carthage of course didn't strike any GPR reverses. The fully draped Genius on the reverse isn't right for any mint. The obverse die may have been created from an authentic host, but the flan is clearly modern thus making the dies modern as well.

Barry Murphy

That's what I meant--the obverse was struck (modern die), but I don't believe it is the artwork of the forger--it's too spot on.

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Diocletian Genio Popvli Romani Alexandria
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2009, 05:01:39 am »
Same fakester with these https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=50167.0 ? ???
It seems that you are right. I was sure that this guy exhibits too much skill to restrict himself by a single pair of dies...

Offline Windchild

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Re: Diocletian Genio Popvli Romani Alexandria
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2009, 05:15:14 pm »
Hello,
I confirme the carthaginian style of the obv. I'll look in my picture database of 3000 Karth nummi if I can find a die match.
But stye is 100% karth.

Also sides of this coin look very smooth, too smooth for a struck nummus.

Guillaume
Invicta Roma Felix Karthago

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Diocletian Genio Popvli Romani Alexandria
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2009, 06:03:15 pm »
I don't think you will find a die match.  I think this is struck with modern dies.
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