Identification of overstrike host coin

[djmacdo]

I just ordered an interesting Dioscurias overstrike, and now I need help identifying the host coin.  I know I have seen it, but I just cannot seem to remember it!

 

[Altamura]

On the lower row I see on the left side (the reverse?) an eagle with open wings, his head at one o'clock. To the left the letters A and a T below.
On the other side there seems to be a head to the right, perhaps Zeus?

But I didn't find a coin really matching that  .

On a coin from Abonoteichus (there are also other spellings around) in Paphlagonia you have a T below an A, but the position does not really fit  :
http://www.s391106508.websitehome.co.uk/PHP/SNG_PHP/04_03_Reply.php?Series=SNGuk&AccessionNo=0509_0202
But Paphlagonia would not be too far away from Dioskurias, perhaps there are some other variants of this type matching better.

Regards

Altamura

[shanxi]

Kings of Galatia might be a possibility. The eagle with open wings, the two central letters of the monogram. Size is also OK.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=4412369

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=4412128

[Mark Fox]

Dear Mac, Altamura, Ralf, and Board,

I have been trying to help Mac determine the undertype on this and another Dioscurias overstrike, and you definitely nailed it for both coins, Ralf.  Very well done! 


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan

[djmacdo]

Shanxi,

I think you have it!  Amazingly perceptive!  Thank you indeed.

Mac

[Altamura]

It seems that shanxi got it, great  .

Deiotaros would fit geographically, because he controlled the eastern part of the southern coast of the Black Sea for some time.

But it would completely reverse the chronologies of these two coin types!

The coins of Deiotaros are usually considered to have been minted between 63 and 58 BC or around that or perhaps a bit later. This seems to be quite sure.

But the municipal coins of Dioskurias are up to now considered to have been minted under the rule of Mithradates VI, which endet at 63 BC.

So either Deiotaros minted his coins already earlier than 63 BC or the municipal coinage of Dioskurias was minted much longer or later than assumend hitherto.

There should be checked whether there are well dated coin hoards with coins from Dioskurias to get a bit further here. I haven't done that yet.

... determine the undertype on this and another Dioscurias overstrike, ...

It would be very interesting to see the other one. Does it have the same undertype or a different one?


Regards

Altamura

[Altamura]

In Goca Revazovic Tsetskhladze, "On the numismatics of Colchis : the classical archaeologist's perspective", Dialogues d'histoire ancienne. Vol. 19 N°1, 1993. pp. 233-256, you find a discussion of the coins from Dioskurias beginning on the bottom of page 241:
https://www.persee.fr/doc/dha_0755-7256_1993_num_19_1_2084

Following Tsetskhladze there have been different datings of this coinage, but all are sometime during the reign of Mithradates VI. Coins of Dioskurias have mostly be found on the northern shore of the Black Sea, and there are only few hoards containing these coins.
Thus it seems improbable to me, that the coinage of Dioskurias began after the end of Mithradate's reign and has in spite of that found it's way to the north Pontic cities.

That Dioskurias continued this coinage after the end of the Mithradatic empire and even overstruck coins of the new rulers is improbable as well. All other Pontic cities did stop their production of Mithradatic coinage.

So in my eyes only remains the alternative that this coinage of Deiotaros began before 63 BC.

Regards

Altamura

[shanxi]

The strength of the "Gallatia" letters on the  thyrsus, and also the strong features of Zeus on the caps of the Dioscouri, indicate the the Dioscourias coin was overstruck and not vice versa.

A weak strike which effects mainly the highest points of the Dioscourias coin; caps and thyrsus.

[Altamura]

The strength of the "Gallatia" letters on the  thyrsus, and also the strong features of Zeus on the caps of the Dioscouri, indicate the the Dioscourias coin was overstruck and not vice versa.

A weak strike which effects mainly the highest points of the Dioscourias coin; caps and thyrsus.

Yes, this is a different explanation, probably you are right.

On the thyrsos it looks very convincing, on the other side perhaps not likewise.

But with respect to the chronology this is the more simple solution and therefore has to be preferred  .

Ok, I had a nice idea which unfortunately has been wrong  .

Regards

Altamura

[djmacdo]

I have to disagree with about which is the overstrike and which the host coin.  Notice that the thyrsos is not fully struck.  With overstrikes when a type is not fully struck up it is not unusual for part of the undertype to remain visible on the type.  So also on the cap.  It is, I think, apparent that the impression of the two caps as flattened most of Zeus' face.\

I shall post the second overstrike.

Mac

[shanxi]

I have to disagree with about which is the overstrike and which the host coin.  Notice that the thyrsos is not fully struck.  With overstrikes when a type is not fully struck up it is not unusual for part of the undertype to remain visible on the type.

For me it's not a "not fully struck" thyrsos, but a thyrsos flattened by the overstrike

 It is, I think, apparent that the impression of the two caps as flattened most of Zeus' face.\

I see an unflattened Zeus (in the image only a little part of it), on a clearly flattened cap

[djmacdo]

Well, we may continue to disagree on that point, but I certainly appreciate your quick and accurate identification of the other strike.  I knew I had seen it, but could not remember when or where.

I would like to credit you identification and cite you opinion when I publish the coin, but "Shanxi" seems too vague.  Could I have your real name--perhaps in a message?

Mac

[shanxi]

Thanks for the offer, but it's really not necessary.

[Altamura]

... Notice that the thyrsos is not fully struck.  ...

But the letters just beside the thyrsos are (those on the other side than the eagle). That these letters are fully struck (meaning that the die came down to the ground), the thyrsos is not but the letters from the undercoin on the thyrsos remain nearly untouched (meaning the the die did not come to the ground) seems technically impossible to me. (I hope that it is somewhat understandable what I want to say  .)

You can also see that the pressure of the overstrike has been larger on one side of the coin than the other, the dies haven't been parallel.
The picture of the coin is looking as if the die axis is 12 h, is this correct? Then you see that the Deiotaros coin has been struck better on the "side of the eagle" and correspondingly on the other side of the coin in the neck of Zeus.

So I think that shanxi is right.

Regards

Altamura

[djmacdo]

I do not have the coin in hand yet and I haunt the mail everyday waiting for it.