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Author Topic: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?  (Read 1789 times)

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Offline Orpio

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Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« on: August 29, 2009, 05:52:17 pm »
Hi,

I would like to present below coin.  It is antoninian of Valerianus. This coin looks like RIC 106 but on the reverse is a serpent. In description of RIC 106 I haven't any information about any serpent. Unlisted type?

I will very gratefull for your suggestion.

Best regards,

Offline Diederik

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Re: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2009, 11:07:07 am »
It's a very curious coin indeed! I am not quite sure if it is a snake or an attempt at a special garment for Sol.


Frans

Offline Orpio

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Re: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2009, 02:43:59 pm »
Thanks Frans for your suggestion.
 :)

Any others suggestions?

Offline slokind

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Re: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2009, 05:46:17 pm »
Though snakes with 'bead' bodies are familiar on late Salus reverses, and Sol's appurtenance surely looks like a magic snake (with a dragon-like head), is it remotely possible that some clueless engraver has rendered his impression of the remains of one of those bound captives that may sit at the feet of Oriens Aug?  Since Sol Rising is virtually here the Emperor Victorious, I suppose that almost anything is possible, but the snake is quite weird.
Pat L.

Offline Orpio

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Re: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2009, 04:02:45 pm »
Thanks Pat:)

I have never seen Sol and snake together on coins. It is very strange! Maybe anyone know such occurrence?

Quote
[but the snake is quite weird

Yes, but I have doubts the reverse is only crack die like in below link (in below case we can see dolphins, in my case something like serpent :))

http://www.notinric.info/6her42.html

Best regards,

Offline Jochen

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Re: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2009, 05:06:36 pm »
Sol is the paradigm of a celestial god and the snake a chthonic creature. I think it would be difficult for them to come together.

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Jochen

Offline Orpio

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Re: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2009, 01:42:22 pm »
Thanks Jochen!

What do you think that the serpent is "only" strange result of die crack?

Best regards,

Offline Jochen

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Re: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2009, 06:50:37 pm »
That's what I have thought too. Perhaps a strange object, a small part of a chain f.e., has done this damage to the die in the shape of a 'snake'.

Best regards

Offline moonmoth

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Re: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2009, 12:40:41 pm »
I notice that it hangs from the left shoulder and connects with the clothing on the left of the coin.  I think it is an aberrant version of the edge of Sol's cloak.  Look at the examples here:

http://mk.shahrazad.net/gallienus/index2.php?order=Coins.ReverseLegend%2C+Coins.ObverseLegend%2C+Coins.Reign%2C+Coins.RICNumber%2C+Coins.GoblNumber%2C+Coins.Number&size=Large&fontsize=-1&obvleg=&exact2=yes&revleg=oriens+avg&exact=no&emperor2=Valerian1&ricnumber=&goblnumber=&province=&city=&ricmint=All&goblmint=All&searmint=All&denomination=All&reign=All

If that huge link doesn't work, go to this site and search for ORIENS AVGG for Valerian I:

http://mk.shahrazad.net/gallienus/

The second and fourth examples show cloak edges that could easily be transformed by an imaginative engraver.

Bill 
"... A form of twisted symbolical bedsock ... the true purpose of which, as they realised at first glance, would never (alas) be revealed to mankind."

Offline Orpio

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Re: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2009, 02:15:12 pm »
Wow! Yes! Thanks moonmoth!

I think that you are right. The second example is similary to my coin.  :laugh:

Only, this dragon-snake head.... :(


Offline moonmoth

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Re: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2009, 04:06:28 am »
Yes, that head .. it doesn't really look like a head, though, it's just that it's in the place where a head could be if that were a dragon or a snake.

Maybe it's a round clasp of some sort, with an embellishment or a small flaw in the die.  Or, maybe the engraver made that odd cloak edge to cover up a mistake he had made earlier, and what you see coming out from the round blob is the remains of that mistake. He's covered that up with a big blob and some wide cloak edging, then rather carelessly continoued on round to make it look as though that was always what he meant to do. You can see one bob on top of a leg, another careless slip, and then he has just carried on round.  If that were a snake it would have a big gap in its body.

That engraver is not very skilled. Look at the globe Sol is carrying! It's not round so much as egg-shaped with a pointed top.  We only call it a globe because we know that's what the engraver was trying for.

Bill
"... A form of twisted symbolical bedsock ... the true purpose of which, as they realised at first glance, would never (alas) be revealed to mankind."

sdram s

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Re: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2009, 05:11:29 am »
nice

Offline Orpio

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Re: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2009, 07:29:42 am »
Thank Bill!

What do you think that the coin is a barbarian imitation of official issue?

Offline moonmoth

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Re: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2009, 09:49:43 am »
Well, the obverse and the lettering look OK to me.  It's just that figure on the reverse that is not right.  I think a bad engraver is more likely. 

Bill
"... A form of twisted symbolical bedsock ... the true purpose of which, as they realised at first glance, would never (alas) be revealed to mankind."

Offline Orpio

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Re: Valerianus - RIC 106 or unlisted?
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2009, 04:33:36 pm »
OK, thanks Bill.

 

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