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Author Topic: Uncommon Elagabal (?) from Tripolis/Phoenicia (?)  (Read 782 times)

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Offline Thilo

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Uncommon Elagabal (?) from Tripolis/Phoenicia (?)
« on: January 21, 2022, 09:20:18 am »
Dear all,

a while ago I acquired this coin. I really like it but it is a bit uncommon, in my view.

AE28, 17.31 grm.
Obv. Laureate, draped and cuirassed bust (of Elagabalus?) r., no legends to make out.
Rv. Figure of Astarte (?) within temple with central archway with steps approaching slightly from left and two pedimented wings with four columns each, no legends left.

Came from the Lindgren collection.

Now, I am aware that there are similar types out there, Rouvier 1763, SNG Copenhagen 291, BMC 118 et seq. (e.g. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5373542, https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1284556). However, the Tripolis Elagabalus portraits always seem to be considerably beardless or have whiskers, only, while this beard rather reminds me of Caracalla or a late Geta. Also, the stairs on all of the coins I have seen approach from the right instead of the left. In addition, the temple itself just as the portrait seem to be in "weaker" style. While the temple seems to be more robust in my coin, the construction usually looks quite a bit weaker on the other pieces I have seen. The whole impression seems to be quite different to the Tripolis coins I have seen.

So, what do you think? Is this just an unknown set of dies, another coin - maybe any of you has a duplicate of this one.

Any help is highly appreciated.

Best,

Thilo


Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Uncommon Elagabal (?) from Tripolis/Phoenicia (?)
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2022, 10:53:39 am »
Hi Thilo,

Nice coin! :)

I love those temple reverses. I also like the fact that it came from the Lindgren collection, as many of my coins did.

I see what you mean about the portrait. I don't have an example of this type, but I do have an example of Phoenicia, Tripolis, Elagabalus, BMC 110-117 (Lindgren 2355). Mine also has a temple reverse, but it is a different temple.

On my example, as you stated, Elagabalus appears to be beardless.

Many times, it is difficult to tell the difference between portraits of Elagabalus, Caracalla, and Geta. Sometimes, modern experts and scholars get it wrong, only to be corrected decades later. It is entirely possible that your example is Caracalla or Geta.

Here is my example of BMC 110-117 (last coin):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/rp_phoen_tripolis.htm

Meepzorp

Offline clueless

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Re: Uncommon Elagabal (?) from Tripolis/Phoenicia (?)
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2022, 02:16:42 pm »
This might be Caracalla, seems to be slight remains of a beard there.

The auction catalog for the sale of the Vermeule collection ca 20 years ago might be a very good source of information.

Just my 2 c,

Clueless

Offline Pekka K

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Re: Uncommon Elagabal (?) from Tripolis/Phoenicia (?)
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2022, 02:03:10 am »

Tripolis minted Elagabalus bearded on similar coins, eg:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=725194

Pekka K

Offline Thilo

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Re: Uncommon Elagabal (?) from Tripolis/Phoenicia (?)
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2022, 04:52:11 am »
Thank you all!

Dear Pekka,

I also saw this coin and thought I saw somewhiskers but there may be also some fuzz around his chin on the coin. The issue for me is that both the obverse (broader face, clearer beard) and the reverse ("bolder", more massive and robust temple) seem to be quite different from the ones I have seen, so far including my other piece, please also see below.

Thank you, once more - ans - any tiny little thought is highly appreciated.

Thilo

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Uncommon Elagabal (?) from Tripolis/Phoenicia (?)
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2022, 11:58:46 pm »
Dear Thilo, Meepzorp, Clueless, Pekka, & Board,

It is late here, so I am not going to dive too deeply into this, but I will note the following:

This Tripolis coin type for Caracalla in the BnF could be from a die-identical obverse die:

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8536979g

Sadly, the major difference I see on Thilo's coin (i.e. the awkwardly horizontal laurel leaf in the emperor's laurel wreath) probably can be explained as the result of tooling. 

In any case, the reverse on the BnF coin is also important to us, because it clearly bears the date ΓΚΦ = A.D. 211/212 (according to BMC Phoenicia).

Hope this helps.


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan       
 

Offline Thilo

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Re: Uncommon Elagabal (?) from Tripolis/Phoenicia (?)
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2022, 09:01:12 am »
Thank you so much Mark,

as always you seem to hit the nail on its head - even if the result is not exactly what I would have hoped for, of course. Nose, eye, mouth and beard indeed may show tooling  and the fields are very even. A pity that it has gone through two collectors' hands (and a reputable dealer's hands to whom I could return it but likely will not because I somehow still like it) without being recognized.

It's well done and has some beauty, though (as compared to other tooled cooins from Tripolis like Mr. Tooly (https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=tooled#:~:text=Tooled%20coins%20are%20coins%20that%20have%20suffered%20from,coins%20may%20be%20recognized%20by%20the%20following%3A%201)

The horizontal laurel leaf seems to be present in other types, too, though: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=8552036; https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7610253 - maybe it's a curl.

What I pity most, of course, is the fact that if the obverse is tooled - the reverse is most likely, too, and potentially even in a degree that we cannot know whether the original actually did show Astarte's temple, although I would think so but still will not know if the reverse originally had the lighter, less robust look of the Elagabalus pieces.

Still, a big thank you to you, Mark!

Thilo

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Uncommon Elagabal (?) from Tripolis/Phoenicia (?)
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2022, 09:18:23 pm »
Hello again Thilo and Board,

I am not certain if we are talking about the same "leaf," so I have provided a comparison here to help us stay on the same page.  The suspect leaf on each coin has been circled in red.  That being said, after further and extensive research today, I am now thinking that the two coins probably do not share the same obverse die after all.  Note, for instance, the emperor's collar, which I have circled in green.  Neither one looks obviously tooled in my opinion, and yet they are different.  Also, the diameters and weight of both coins (not corrected in the comparison) apparently differ enough in person to indicate possibly different denominations (the Caracalla temple types in general seem to be among the largest).     
       
What this tells us is the need to find a match for Thilo's coin type.  The closest I could find in Rouvier was no. 1737:

https://archive.org/details/journalinternati67sboruoft/page/n43/mode/2up?q=IV

The size and weight fits better.  In the 1861 volume of Revue Numismatique, however, the bust is described and pictured bare.  Attached are the pages of interest from that article by J. Sabatier.  I am guessing Rouvier corrected the attribution (even though he had cited the wrong plate in his own work)?  Another strange thing is J. Sabatier's coin no. 9, which is also illustrated on Plate V.  It seems to be absent in Rouvier's work and I don't quite know why.  The reverse (the only side pictured) also seems similar to Thilo's coin. 

At this point, until someone tracks down a coin that truly shares the same obverse die used to strike Thilo's piece, the tooling issue must remain uncertain, although I still find the horizontal laurel leaf a bit strange looking.  In any event, despite the new questions that have arisen, the attribution of the emperor on Thilo's coin to Caracalla remains very strong.

I hope this helps and urge you to contact one of the RPC editors.  They might have your arguably very rare temple type already cataloged and may even be able to provide a die-identical specimen for comparison.

     
Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan         

Offline Thilo

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Re: Uncommon Elagabal (?) from Tripolis/Phoenicia (?)
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2022, 08:48:49 am »
Thank you, Mark,

once more, and even more than before.

As you recommended, I wrote to the RPC team, today. Let's see if we can get more information.

Thank you for being so helpful and for your amazing scholarship.

Thilo

 

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