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Author Topic: small coin identification help  (Read 767 times)

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Offline Gianluca G

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small coin identification help
« on: November 15, 2021, 02:16:53 pm »
Hello, I would like to be able to identify this coin.
weight: 0.5 grams
diameter (considering the greater width): 7.5 mm
metal: not magnetic
It is a small coin.
Thanks to the availability.

Offline Gianluca G

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Re: small coin identification help
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2021, 11:20:05 am »
Storic user : "The specimen is beyond any doubt authentic."

Good evening, I update you:
in another forum they confirmed the authenticity of the coin and provided me with explanations.
"The first clue is given by the very strong and clear representation of the figure of Christ Pantocrator on the right (where instead the Byzantine names always place the bust / portrait of the emperor). Furthermore, the vividness of the portrait of the Redeemer contrasts with the Byzantine representations of the fullers of the VI-VII centuries who are much more standardized and less powerful.

On the reverse we find the legend XRE, where the X is a christogram which stands for CRISTVS while RE stands for REGNAT

(sometimes we find XC RG with the same meaning; or XC IMPE: for Cristus IMPERAT)

in the exergue we see XX

These clues make us lean towards an anonymous issue of the Capuan domination of Salerno, around the last quarter of the 10th century, a half-fuller classified as follows:

Cappelli "Study on the coins of the Salerno Mint" 1972, n. 39 p. 14

Travaini inve attributes it to Roberto il Guiscardo (1077-1085), identifying the last issue of the Duke of Puglia in the replied fullers.

Travaini "The coinage of Norman Italy" 1995, n. 34

and then also taken up by D'Andrea - Contreras "The Norman Coins of the Kingdom of Sicily", 2015, n. 25 (quoted as fuller) p. 71

Both Travaini and Contreras mention only fullers, while Cappelli mentions the fuller (no. 38) and the half fuller (no. 39); the specimen above is clearly a half fuller in weight and form. I would add that despite the restricted form, the image of the Christ Pantocrator is exceptional in terms of power and expressive vigor. One more example of the extraordinary engraving ability of the artists of the Italic area of ​​the secc. VIII-X which can be admired in the papal-Byzantine siliquae and in some Lombard issues of the Ravenna mint. Congratulations on the beautiful coin.

the specimen is clearly a fraz. of fuller (Cappelli describes him as 'half fuller' for which he reports an average weight of around 2 gr.).

The attribution to Guglielmo would in fact seem the most likely for the types taken by the fuller of larger dimensions (Hats n. 38 with weights between 4 and 5 gr.) And for the shape of the flan.

For the attribution to Guiscardo, on the other hand, Travaini speaks of fullers retorted from the closet of San Salvatore from where 51 specimens of the fuller type come from, which on the reverse bear the legend (X) CRE (type 25b by D'Andrea - Contreras.

The fraction of follaro in question was also described in the volume of the Bellizia: "The coins of the mint of Salerno" (Moliterno) 1992, at n. 70 p. 37.

Bellizia describes him as the fuller with similar types - described in n. 69 of the same text - but with the edges cut out, precisely to reduce the weight by actually creating a fraction. Bellizia also attributes it to Roberto il Guiscardo.

The specimen is beyond any doubt authentic."

Offline Gianluca G

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Re: small coin identification help
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2021, 04:56:32 pm »
After you read up the last answer, my personal comment: I believe that here a topic moves too quickly, and superficially, in the "fake coins" section without offering people the opportunity to think, and negatively influencing the value of a coin, just because a user expresses doubts. In the other forum we discuss, dialogue, and do not "move". I would recommend that you always wait for a larger amount of responses before moving a topic. My best regards.

Offline PMah

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Re: small coin identification help
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2021, 07:34:16 pm »
Why don't you post the original listing from the source?  In another post, you say you have many similar coins from Heritage.
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Offline Virgil H

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Re: small coin identification help
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2021, 08:00:34 pm »
Gianluca,

Have you actually looked at all those references you cite to prove the coin is authentic? My point here is that I have looked at other coin communities online and absolutely none come close to what we have here at Forum with the level of expertise of some of the folks here. It is remarkable, actually, some of the people here who help less experienced folks like us every day. I am so thankful about what I learn here (and I would probably not be an active coin collector without this Forum to be honest) and I have seen that nowhere else. Could they be wrong about this coin? Sure. Are they wrong about this one? Maybe, I have no idea, this isn't my area. Will someone comment further after that last post of yours? Maybe and I hope so, but your last post shows you want answers you want to see, not necessarily answers that are accurate. I don't know. I would hang around a bit longer, in any case, and see what further conversation develops. This Forum is not like Facebook for a reason and it is why I am here every day and not on the other coin forums. I have seen lots of inaccurate posts from people who think they are experts and are not on other coin forums, almost never here and, when it does, the poster acknowledges it.

Just saying, as the kids say these days.

Take care,
Virgil

Offline Gianluca G

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Re: small coin identification help
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2021, 03:52:14 am »
Why don't you post the original listing from the source?  In another post, you say you have many similar coins from Heritage.

Hi, if you ask me the source it means you don't trust my words, too bad. The reason why I did not insert the link of the source is due to the respect I have for this forum, it did not seem right to insert links from other forums. I have no problem doing it, if the moderator authorizes me to insert the link of another forum, I will do it immediately and you will be able to verify the veracity of what I have asserted. Best Regards.

Offline Gianluca G

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Re: small coin identification help
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2021, 04:02:12 am »
Gianluca,

Have you actually looked at all those references you cite to prove the coin is authentic? My point here is that I have looked at other coin communities online and absolutely none come close to what we have here at Forum with the level of expertise of some of the folks here. It is remarkable, actually, some of the people here who help less experienced folks like us every day. I am so thankful about what I learn here (and I would probably not be an active coin collector without this Forum to be honest) and I have seen that nowhere else. Could they be wrong about this coin? Sure. Are they wrong about this one? Maybe, I have no idea, this isn't my area. Will someone comment further after that last post of yours? Maybe and I hope so, but your last post shows you want answers you want to see, not necessarily answers that are accurate. I don't know. I would hang around a bit longer, in any case, and see what further conversation develops. This Forum is not like Facebook for a reason and it is why I am here every day and not on the other coin forums. I have seen lots of inaccurate posts from people who think they are experts and are not on other coin forums, almost never here and, when it does, the poster acknowledges it.

Just saying, as the kids say these days.

Take care,
Virgil

Hi, thanks for your message and the grouping you did. Maybe I expressed myself badly, I'm not making controversy. I'm just saying that there is a tendency to move a topic towards the fake coins section, with too much superficiality. Just due to the fact that my 4 posted coins belong to the same lot, they have all been moved to the fake coins section. In fact, in this lot, as I already said, there are also many authentic coins. One cannot judge the originality of a coin just because it is associated with a lot. That's all. Instead, bang, bang, bang, bang, all moved, because they come from the same lot, it doesn't seem to me that this is the right way to deepen. Regarding the references of those who assured me the authenticity of the coin: the forum is the esteemed Italian numismatic forum Lamoneta.It, where many historical experts and numismatic experts swarm. We are not in school, and it is not my intention to argue. I just pointed out to everyone that from my humble point of view, we tend to move too much by association than by study. As I said to the user who wrote before you, I have no problem inserting the link of the discussion of the other forum. I don't know if I can do it. If the moderator authorizes me, I enter it. Best Regards

Offline Arados

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Re: small coin identification help
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2021, 05:11:56 am »
Hi Gianluca,

I refer you to the following comment i wrote on the identification board.

"If it has been established that a specific coin is fake or is suspected to be fake, then those posts will be moved to the fake coins and notorious fake sellers board. For the latter this does not necessarily mean that a suspected fake coin will be determined so when the discussion reaches its conclusion."

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=126756.0

There has been no superficiality applied, your coins do look suspicious and for that reason were moved here. Please do not state there is a tendency to move coins to this board, that is not the case, the majority of coins posted on the identification board are deemed geniune.

Regards
Martin

Offline Gianluca G

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Re: small coin identification help
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2021, 05:45:08 am »
 +++ thanks for the info, now I got it, please excuse me.

Ok now I post the link, it's in italian of course.

You can easily translate everything from Italian to English.

My best regards

https://www.lamoneta.it/topic/202850-richiesta-identificazione-piccola-moneta-antica/

Offline Gianluca G

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Re: small coin identification help
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2021, 06:01:41 am »
Why don't you post the original listing from the source?  In another post, you say you have many similar coins from Heritage.

Hi, if you ask me the source it means you don't trust my words, too bad. The reason why I did not insert the link of the source is due to the respect I have for this forum, it did not seem right to insert links from other forums. I have no problem doing it, if the moderator authorizes me to insert the link of another forum, I will do it immediately and you will be able to verify the veracity of what I have asserted. Best Regards.

It's full of topics with external links, so, I understand by myself that i can paste the link :
https://www.lamoneta.it/topic/202850-richiesta-identificazione-piccola-moneta-antica/

Offline SC

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Re: small coin identification help
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2021, 07:55:18 am »
I would also comment that the Fake Coins boards is a place for discussion of possible fakes or other similar problems.

A Fake Coin Report is what is done when it is certain the coin is fake.

Happily many coins discussed on the fake board end up being accepted as genuine and we learn a great deal from the discussion.

SC
SC
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Offline Gianluca G

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Re: small coin identification help
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2021, 08:14:19 am »
I would also comment that the Fake Coins boards is a place for discussion of possible fakes or other similar problems.

A Fake Coin Report is what is done when it is certain the coin is fake.

Happily many coins discussed on the fake board end up being accepted as genuine and we learn a great deal from the discussion.

SC

Yes yes now I understand the difference, before, being the first time for me, i misunderstood the meaning.
Thanks for your message.

 

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